@romanigypsyeyes I wasn’t referring to low-income students who are eligible for Pell grants. I’m referring to middle-class families - the families who don’t have the financial resources (and most likely business connections) to give their students that needed “edge,” but they make enough money to disqualify themselves for most need-based aid. If your household income is in the $55K range, and you have a 30 ACT, you’re pretty much financially screwed in the American college financial realm, at least in my state. Our state flagship will give a student a full ride with a 32 ACT score. A 30 gets that same student a $1,000 scholarship. To qualify for a pell grant, household income must be less than $50K. If you don’t meet those constraints, then you are taking out tens of thousands of dollars (if not hundreds of thousands) in college loans. Get a degree in a low-paying field, and you are destined to default on your student loan. Judging from the media attention to the high costs of college and student default rates, I’m guessing this problem isn’t just in my state. Personally, we just can’t afford to have liberal arts majors in our household - they need something that will allow them to support themselves.
I am stunned by the CPA requirement. A Comparative Lit major, I was offered a job with a Big Eight (yes, it dates me) accounting firm coming out of college with a grand total of three accounting courses to my name (which was 100% of my college’s accounting courses). I probably could have gotten the offer if all I had taken was the first one. They (and I) had no doubt that they could teach me and I could learn everything I would need to know to take the CPA exam in due course. Indeed, 40 years on, and never having worked as an accountant, I am still very good with accounting concepts and perfectly capable of discussing accounting issues with CPAs, researching GAAP questions, and dealing with different regulatory accounting systems, things I have to do professionally on a regular basis.
I can’t imagine what the heck they are teaching in 150 hours of accounting courses. It’s not that I can’t imagine 150 productive hours of accounting courses; it’s just that anyone who took 150 productive hours of accounting courses would be a heck of a lot more sophisticated than 99% of the CPAs I encounter, young or old.
The crazy thing about that requirement is that people who are actually smart and imaginative – people who would be great accountants – must be bored to tears in those 150 hours of classes. It’s a requirement that ensures mediocrity in the profession.
It’s not 150 accounting hours, it’s 150 hours of courses - BA + MAcc, though a double degree will often satisfy the hours requirement. Accounting majors are still satisfying gen ed requirements, which usually take 2 years, and they also take a number of economics courses. This idea that accounting degree = mediocrity is quite silly.
I’m not sure what part of my post made you think I was responding to you… but I wasn’t.
I was referring to statements like this:
That article was a very interesting read. Thank you for sharing it with all of us! I have a few thoughts on the topic. here they are in no particular order:
- Consider that most of us here are looking at this from an American point of view. In the UK, for example, going to university is a 3-year long thing and you dive right into classes in your major. Little, if any, general ed requirements like most American universities have.
- In some other countries, it's not enough to just have a college degree. You have to have a degree in the field that you are seeking a job in. So if you got a psychology degree, but wanted to switch careers after awhile and go into computer science, your ability to switch like that is very limited. This is very different compared to the US, in which (generally speaking) most employers only care if you got a bachelor's degree or not and your major is not as important once you're past your first job out of college (with the exception, of course, like engineering).
- Engineering fields are definitely cyclical. I know of more than 1 person who studied hard in engineering in college, only to graduate at a time when nobody needed engineers and even experienced engineers were getting laid off. Lots of them ended up switching to information technology instead. Or look at the recent boom (in the not too distant past) in which students graduating with a BS in petroleum engineering were getting starting salaries of $100-$125k/year with signing bonuses. Then months later, the petroleum job market busts and everybody is getting laid off, especially in the Dakotas.
- I used to be of the mind set that we should pay for our kids' college education no matter what they decide to study...even if they wanted to major in underwater basket weaving. However, I will totally admit that you could probably lump my spouse & I in the category of "those parents who don't let their children study literature." I'm not going to spend tens of thousands of $$ on an english degree. If our kids want to pursue that, they can figure out a way to pay for it themselves. Blast away at me with cannon fodder. :-) That's pretty much how we feel. At the end of your college experience, you need to find gainful employment...not work as a Starbucks barista and live at home until you're 30 years old.
- You don't HAVE to get a college degree in order to earn a decent living. There are many professions that do not require a BS/BA. For example, plumbers or mechanics can live quite comfortably and you certainly don't need a BA/BS to become a plumber or mechanic. Trade school or community college? Sure. But a 4-year university? No way.
- Our family is not independently wealthy and, as a result, we just do not have the luxury to tell our kiddos to go out to college and find themselves and they'll have a job in Mom & Dad's company to fall back upon.
- I am GLAD that even engineering majors have to take general ed classes. There IS value to having a well rounded liberal arts education. Are the general ed requirements for engineering & comp sci majors different than for other majors? Definitely. Why? Because majors like engineering, comp sci, nursing all have a lot of rigorous material to cover in 4 years and it doesn't leave as much wiggle room for you to go explore.
- liberal arts majors who become school teachers - As a parent, I am eternally grateful for these people because they are awesome rock stars who have made learning fun & exciting for my kids. But am I willing to pay $60,000/year ($240,000 in total...you can buy a house for that) for my kids to go into elementary education? No. They can go to an in-state university, where tuition is way cheaper, and graduate with little to no debt...thus making it MUCH EASIER to live on a teacher's salary since they wouldn't have hundreds of thousands of dollars to pay off in student loans.
@JHS All 150 credits are not just accounting classes. At least 60 credits are general ed courses. About 57-60 credits are actually accounting classes. The rest is business classes.
I would like to point out to the people who keep saying you only need 30 credits of accounting classes. That is incorrect. The 30 credits are for advance accounting classes. You have to take the lower level accounting classes as pre-req 1st.
Big 4 accounting firms were still recruiting non-accounting majors in the late '90s. My HS friend was recruited in her 3rd year right out of the blue by one despite being an Asian Lit major at Barnard.
She started working for them part-time from that point on in a non-accounting capacity while they paid for her graduate accounting classes and CPA exam as she entered the field after the 150 hour requirement was implemented. No issues and she’s currently an accountant at a boutique accounting firm in the NYC area after her stint with a Big-4 firm.
The 150 hour rule is 150 hours worth of all college credits…including distribution/gen eds. NOT 150 hours of just Accounting classes. However, one is required to take some key accounting classes as part of that 150 total credit hours in order to be eligible to sit for the CPA exam.
According to my accountant friends and moreso relatives who became accountants before the 150 hour mandate was implemented, one good thing about the implementation of that rule is the percentage of passing the CPA on the first 2 tries is much higher than before.
Then again, back when some of them started as accountants, the only educational prereqs required to take the CPA exam was 2 years worth of college credits with a few being in accounting.
While it made entering the accounting profession seemingly easier, those were also the days when flunkout rates on the CPA exam were higher and it wasn’t unheard of for many CPA examinees to require as many as 6 attempts before passing the CPA exam.
JHS, within the 150 hours for accounting there can be real flexibility. My son is an accounting major and in the required 150 hours after gen-ed and required classes, he is going to at least minor in a particular area of Asian history that became a passion for him after touring Asia as a musician. He also will be doing a great deal of playing and learning music. And some of the required classes, such as micro and macro economics and statistics are beneficial for many people.
OK, OK, sorry to have gone off like that. I should have known that 150 hours of accounting courses didn’t make sense. 30 hours of non-introductory courses I could live with, plus some related-field courses.
Oh, good grief. Glad the 150 hour requirement was clarified. The world would have no accountants if one had to spend five years taking 100% accounting coursework.
And, trust me, as a guy who has become a bit of a hack accountant because of my job, it’s really and truly not that hard.
A kid who has taken through Algebra III can cut through accounting coursework and pass the CPA with little difficulty if they are at all intelligent.
I think the things that have not been, and likely won’t be, resolved in this thread are the following two points:
- what the future means for a kid who majors in something "general"; and
- what the future really holds for a kid who majors in something technical or career-focused.
I think we all agree that if you’re dirt poor, are on your own and need to borrow for undergrad, then it may make sense to hedge your bets and study four years for a job. With that said, I don’t think that’s all it’s cracked up to be, but immediate economic security may be important.
I don’t think we all agree that there is inherent value in a well rounded education, and that taking philosophy and poetry classes make you “better” in a general sense.
I also don’t think we all agree that the kind of “better” to which I refer above is at all expedient in the job market.
I asked a question up the thread that has not received an answer, and I think an answer to this question would be quite germane to the central point with which we seem to be strugglin: how are the legions of poli sci, econ, math, biology, sociology, English, Int’l relations, geography and similar majors getting by? Food stamps? Welfare? Mom and Dad’s basement? And to eliminate it before it starts, when I say “legions”, I’m not referring to the most elite kids at top LACs and universities.
How are the Poli Sci kids from, say, the University of Washington, getting by?
I would really and truly like to know.
If you can’t answer that question, then you shouldn’t be debating @blossom about her hiring experience. That much I can tell you.
The HS classmate who ended up being recruited into accounting by a big-4 out of the blue was from a low-income immigrant family who didn’t discourage her from majoring in Asian Lit at Barnard. Her original intention was to become a Lit Prof or work in the publishing industry.
Plenty of other HS classmates from low-income backgrounds who didn’t major in pre-professional undergrad majors…including yours truly who ended up gainfully employed.
On the flipside, some HS classmates who ended up being “pushed” into their pre-professional tracks by family and/or peer pressure from their social circle in their home neighborhoods/HS now feel they are “trapped” in professions they find they hate. Unfortunately, the everpresent issue of the “golden handcuffs” of their present field and the heavy specialization of their pre-professional education is such that they feel they’ll need to start from zero.
And there’s no guarantee the lack of love/passion for a given pre-professional track means they’ll naturally be detoured out of it at the undergrad/grad school stage.
Know too many cases…especially among HS classmates who lacked the love/passion for the profession they entered through parental/social group peer pressure who EXCELLED in the field despite that lack. However, after 10+ years, they are extremely miserable and some have serious mental health issues to work through as a result.
Taking out hundreds of thousands of dollars in loans is a terrible idea for any major.
What some random supposed HS classmates may or may not have done 20 or more years ago is not relevant to the current climate’s college and hiring climate.
Poli Sci majors from U Washington get jobs- starting at 25K per year- working as a staffer for a state senator. Six months later, the legislative aide quits to go to law school and your junior staffer gets his/her first promotion to 30K. Six months later, the governor’s office has an opening for someone to focus on health and human services and the kids gets a new job, now making 35K. Etc.
Or the poli sci major from U Washington goes to DC (with its high cost of living) and does much the same thing but has three roommates in a two bedroom apartment, working for the Washington State office in DC. Every state has an office in DC which monitors legislation which might impact the state, tries to position new legislation (aka “pork”) which will bring federal dollars back to the districts, etc. These jobs require two things- a degree in government or poli sci, and ties to the state you are representing. (and the ability to live on 28K in Washington DC- but the jobs usually include health insurance). And then the upward trajectory begins just like in example A. These are interesting jobs dealing with big issues (how are veterans in our state being served by the VA?) which are directly relevant to the degree, and are well regarded by future employers, whatever the road taken.
Or the poli sci major from U Washington gets hired by Microsoft’s Government Affairs team as an entry level analyst, examining legislation and campaign statements at both the federal and state level so the lobbyists who represent Microsoft can push a button and have a thoughtful position on virtually any topic which might impact the company- wages, immigration, tech policy, anti-trust, environmental concerns, affirmative action- you name it. These jobs pay better than the public sector roles- slower advancement but great benefits and good bucks.
I could continue but you get the jist.
I’m guessing that few people, very, very few…could pass the CPA exam with one accounting class, having learned the rest “on the job”. I can guarantee you the change to the 150 credit hour rule was not made to encourage “mediocrity” in the profession.
@cobrat - your friends must be older. When was this that 2 years college was required to sit? As I recall, being eligible for the exam in 1986 required a Bachelor’s Degree with 24 (I think 24) very specific accounting-type hours included.
I agree a well-rounded liberal education is good. However, I don’t necessarily think that and a professional type major are mutually exclusive. Obviously, some posters do.
It was for a subset of friends and relatives who entered the profession before the '80s.
Most of them are in favor of increasing educational requirements to sit for the exam due to the high rates of retakes for many to pass or the flunkout rates back when they took the CPA exam.
Still shocked to hear about how it wasn’t uncommon for CPA examinees to need as many as 6 retakes to pass the exam back when they started whereas most people I knew who took the CPA in the late '90s/early '00s passed on the first attempt.
@tucsonmom I appreciate that other countries’ higher education practices may be different than those in the USA, but my kids are going to college here. And plumbers or mechanics (and HVAC experts) make great salaries, but the great majority of kids not going to college won’t be able to earn anything close to what they earn.
As for going to a LAC and majoring in English or History, and then teaching elementary school? That doesn’t mean that grads are as limited as a grad who got a degree in elementary education from a less expensive directional public school. LAC grad may go back to grad school, or decide teaching doesn’t pay enough or is ready for something else, and then gets hired by someone in HR like @blossom, who recognizes the skills learned at an LAC.
Anyway, I liked your post, as it contribute to a lively thread.
89:
The department provides a wide range of opportunities for hands on learning and research, including sponsorship of undergraduate research fellows at our Center for American Politics and Policy and longstanding connections to legislative internship programs in Olympia and Washington DC. Students who take courses in the department become more incisive observers of politics and policy, both in the U.S. and around the world. More generally, students gain valuable analytic skills and familiarity with different social-science research methods used to study the political world. Our alumni go on to a variety of successful careers. Some choose careers that make direct use of their advanced knowledge of politics and government, including numerous high ranking state and federal elected officials, State Supreme Court judges, state and federal prosecutors, and the host of the region’s leading conservative talk-radio show. Many other alumni do not work directly in politics and policy and instead use the more general analytic and critical thinking skills developed through coursework in a wide variety of endeavors. For example, alumni include high ranking executives with investment and financial services firms and the CEO of a large regional network of community health care organizations.
This is perplexing. As you graduated college in around 1999 or so, you would have been a newborn or perhaps in preschool when these friends entered the field before the 1980s. Precocious friends you supposedly have!
Thank you, @sryrstress . The accountant-bashing on this thread is a little surprising to me. Really, if you can’t make your point without denigrating the intelligence and/or interests of other individuals, then that says more about the arguer than it does anything else. There are smart accountants who are passionate about their field, just like there are not-so-smart lit majors chose that major “because it’s easy.”
Full disclosure: I’m a graduate of a Top-30 university, double major in English and chemistry - and my daughter is an accountant who passed all sections of the CPA exam on her first try, with subsection scores above 90%. At the time I thought that was amazing, but now I’m learning that gee, it’s really not that hard after all.