“Can someone shoot some other person if the other agrees to be shot and both of them are drunk?”
No. There are certain things you don’t have to power to agree to. Outside of a boxing ring or movie set, you can’t contract to be punched.
@momrath my post #21 regarding liability policies was in response to:
It is often the case that the decision to settle does not lie exclusively with the college unless they want to proceed outside their policy which is unlikely. Insurance companies don’t like litigation because of expense, so they look for the path of least resistance. They are usually quite skilled in reaching settlements because well, this is what they do. Many settlements have little to do with the college’s estimation of how they will do at trial.
Small settlements of $15,000 with promises of a “clean record” or non-disclosure of sexual assault charges may happen - but the monetary settlement probably fell beneath the policy deductible and the insurance company would likely not be involved. I am not certain that an insurance company would want or agree to any involvement in such a deal. It could be a liability for them.
I also think that after the Jesse Matthew case and the Antonio Charles debacle at Miami University, colleges are going to be wary of these deals. Women are now suing when college’s conceal the record and then the accused moves on to another university and commits another sexual assault. I think the severity of the offense will have more bearing on those sorts of agreements going forward.
Insurance companies are indeed very good at figuring the cost of settlements vis litigation. In fact, quite a few of the math majors on these campuses are going to end up working for insurance companies figuring out the delta between paying their lawyers to defend cases and paying money to settle them. It is not a simple decision though. Settle too many, and too early, and you are subject to frivolous suits when the Plaintiff’s bar figures you are good for 25-50k every time they file a complaint. Play hard ball at the wrong time and get smoked for seven figures, which also causes more cases to be filed. Add in that lots of policies have either high diminishing deductibles (meaning lawyer’s fees and costs contribute to exhausting the deductible) or consent to settle provisions and it is really hard to draw conclusions about the merits of any one case settling.
Fine. Let’s put that theory to rest. Let’s agree that a guy can be so drunk he is legally (or by some college regulation) unable to consent, and yet respond physically. I’ve previously believed this, but now I don’t.
Where does that put us? I’m ready to be outraged if a college dismisses out of hand a guy’s complaint that a person had sex with him without his consent. Nobody has provided an example of that.
But I’m definitely not ready to conclude that because guys don’t mind people having sex with them without their consent (as evidenced by their lack of complaints) that women should also not mind people having sex with them without their consent. Any college student, if he or she believes someone had non-consensual sexual relations with them, can register a complaint. If guys don’t do this, either they don’t believe people had non-consensual sex with them, or they don’t care. Or they think their complaints will be dismissed, but, again, the complaints shouldn’t be dismissed.
People have a right to control of their bodies. They have a right for other people not to have sex with them without their consent when they are incapable of consent. Guys can assert violations of this right. If they don’t choose to register complaints, that’s their choice. Women can still register complaints, even if guys choose not to.
Or they may fear–and not without justification, in my opinion–that they’d be ridiculed by some people and attacked by others if they did this.
Not very nice that you didn’t quote my next sentence, Hunt:
“Or they think their complaints will be dismissed, but, again, the complaints shouldn’t be dismissed.”
I mean something different from “dismissed.” Sorry if that wasn’t clear.
Agree @Hunt. But that kind of puts them in the same position as women find themselves doesn’t it?
I would argue that it puts them in the position that women used to be–they still are to a significant extent, of course, but things have changed. Perhaps I’m mistaken, but I think the reaction to a man making such a complaint against a woman would be quite different from the reaction to complaints by women against men.
If these threads are a microcosm of society, it would seem to me men making rape or sexual assault claims against women would have a whole lot of support from their parents and age peers of their parents.
I doubt we are a microcosm, therefore some men will have to be brave advocates to change this idea men aren’t often raped. imho. I would support them.
ETA: I read CF’s post as using the word “dismissed” on several levels.
You’re preaching to the choir, Hunt. The people in this thread who think that sometimes women’s complaints are unfairly dismissed are ready and willing to support a male who comes forward. However, some people (not you) are using the fact that men don’t come forward as a reason to attack the non-consent regulations.
In a previous thread, I linked to sexual assault incident descriptions from Yale. One of the incidents in the latest report was a guy making a complaint against a woman. I say, I hope he gets justice, whatever that turns out to be. If he was too drunk to consent and she had sexual relations with him, she should be disciplined.
I guess I’m pessimistic about what will actually happen if a complaint by a man against a women gets attention in the press. I predict bad behavior from all sides of the issue. I hope I’m wrong.
I predict bad behavior too, but when a complaint by a woman against a man gets attention, we also see bad behavior. Will there be death threats against the man? Routinely, there are lurid death threats against female accusers when their cases go public. I don’t think it’ll be worse for the guy accuser.
"Men are afraid that women will laugh at them. Women are afraid that men will kill them.”
I think a man filing such a complaint will have the exact same concerns as a woman filing a complaint - backlash from men.
alh is exactly right. Men would make fun of the male accuser. Men threaten to kill female accusers.
Are you saying that it is common for females who accuse someone of sexual assault on campus are routinely getting death threats? How is that happening? My understanding is that even in cases where the woman is found out to have been lying their names are not regularly released. I believe the Dear Colleague letter that started this whole thing requires anonymity for an accuser but could be wrong.
@CardinalFang, did you read the Stanford link in post 19?
http://www.stanforddaily.com/2015/01/11/rethinking-gender-and-sexual-assault-policy-my-story/
Granted he did not file a formal complaint, partly because he knew the penalty was automatic expulsion and he did not want to have that happen to the woman; he felt she would rather benefit more from “education” about proper behavior. But he also reports feeling dismissed by one of the sexual assault resources:
"“You just have to be careful,” she said to me plainly. She began to outline how situations like these are difficult when alcohol is involved, but when I reiterated that I clearly said “no” and felt trapped in the situation she continued to astound me with her suggestions at what I should or could have done. “You could have just left her,” she insisted. “If I were a man in your shoes, I would have definitely called 911.” At this point it was tough to hold back my frustration. I was calling this hotline because I was trying to figure out if what I experienced was sexual assault. How could I have called 911 in the moment if I didn’t even know I was being sexually assaulted?
I continued and began speaking of how I felt my gender could have played a role in the incident and how it was beginning to color our conversation. In response to this she began explicitly insisting that the woman in my case might not even know what happened that night and could accuse me of sexual assault. I had gone from possible victim to possible attacker in this woman’s eyes. Not having received the counseling I sought, I quickly ended the conversation. I understand that I didn’t handle things perfectly that night, but not once did this YWCA representative give any ounce of support. She didn’t refer me to any further resources. She never once validated that this was indeed sexual assault. As a man calling into the Young Women’s Christian Association, it’s tough to think that my gender did not play a role in this woman’s response. It was incredibly frustrating that an organization known for warning against victim-blaming in the case of women had no problem jumping straight to this tactic against a male victim when the tables were turned."
So–though certainly anecdotal, and only one man’s story, I would guess that what happened to him above could happen to other men in his situation. (What really happened? Are you sure it wasn’t the other way around? She might have a case against you…etc)
To be fair, when he did contact the other resource on campus (who had been unable to meet immediately), they were much more helpful and positive and gave him the help he needed.
That male accuser at Stanford got exactly the same treatment that female accusers get. I don’t like it for him, but I don’t like it for female accusers either.
I am saying that female accusers whose names become known get death threats. For example:
@Cardinal Fang, you specifically did not mention the very real possibility of ridicule. Hunt beat me to it.
It is as disingenuous to ignore the societal pressures on young men as it is to ignore those on young women. It seems that an advocacy process has led to more young women thinking that it is socially acceptable to withdraw their consent after the fact on the grounds that he “should have known” that she was “too drunk” to consent.
Perhaps what needs to happen now is that young men need to feel comfortable withdrawing THEIR consent after the fact, claiming that they were too drunk to make a rational decision and they wouldn’t have had sex with that girl if they were sober. I can just imagine the outrage and mockery that would ensue. How DARE HE insult that girl by saying such a thing! That ungallant brute! That SLUT-SHAMER!!! And what kind of a wuss claims that now he feels embarrassed and uncomfortable because he had sex with a girl when he was drunk. And on and on.
Perhaps what needs to happen is for people to take responsibility for what they choose to do. Both before AND after.
As always, this does not apply to purposeful predators. It does seem to apply to many of the young men and women caught up in these “two drunk kids” cases that seem to be producing many–but not all–of these lawsuits.
ETA: Obviously I cross posted with many of the above.
I strongly doubt that women at Stanford who call the YWCA hotline got the same treatment he did. I strongly doubt that women who make such calls at most schools now get that treatment, now being the key word. I think that more and more administrations are now really afraid of what will happen if they don’t take complaints seriously.
The treatment of young women who accuse star athletes at big sports schools? I have no doubt that it remains terrible. That’s one of the many reasons I take a dim view of those schools and their sports fans.