Clearly not. But my impression was that she was okay with making out, but didn’t want to have intercourse.
I actually think that if a guy makes a pass at you that is unwelcome–and by this I mean fondling or an attempt at a kiss–you should indicate that it is unwelcome, and if that doesn’t convince him you should LEAVE. Or at least get up and cross he room. For heavens sake, we are adult women. Haven’t you been in this position? We are talking about a girl who was sober. I personally have deflected such advances while drunk and/or stoned.
I am not talking about cases where the girl is physically overpowered by a determined rapist, that’s another story entirely. I’m talking about a pass. Average advances.
And while we’re at it, no, I do not think that access to a woman’s body should be assumed. But I think that the fondle or the attempted kiss is the ask in most cases. She either responds affirmatively, in words or actions, or she doesn’t. And the same thing is true of a girl making advances to a boy.
I think so too. That’s what you ought to do. But I don’t conclude that a young woman who doesn’t leave is therefore indicating that she is receptive to his advances.
In this particular case, however, Hanna has clarified that the young woman was okay with the kissing but didn’t want to have intercourse. And she said she was okay with the fingering too. I find the panel’s decision to suspend the guy mystifying. What do they think happened, and why do they think he was to blame? In my mind I came up with what I thought was a plausible explanation, but it turns out to be wrong. So what were they thinking?
I suspect the panel’s thinking was keep him off campus until she graduates, then he can come back on. Or better yet, in the meantime, he may find somewhere else to go to continue college.
Whether or not that is a just outcome is a whole different question, though.
" . . . my very strong belief that I am responsible for myself and everything flows from that responsibility."
Chrissie Hynde said essentially the same thing a couple of weeks ago, and was hit with a large backlash for her comments. It’s very difficult to have a reasoned discussion about personal responsibility without victim-blaming being asserted as a response.
@Hanna From your perspective, what types of parenting practices, education or school policies have the most/best impact on reducing the incidences of sexual assault? Are there some schools that get it more right than others? Or some areas of the country?
I’m helping him with a transfer application. No extenuating circumstances after the event except that she saw him at parties and felt he ignored her, which hurt her feelings.
I can’t tell you how many of these investigations seem to turn on hurtful, rude, or caddish behavior by the accused. The complaint is filed after she discovers that he cheated on her during a relationship, or after she sees him flirting with other girls on Facebook, or after he doesn’t follow up on a hookup by walking her home or calling/texting the next day. These romantic wrongs are listed in the complaint along with the alleged attack, and the decision-maker often questions the accused about them and sometimes even mentions them in the ruling.
I don’t know what the school was thinking, but (1) there were no experts on the panel who knew anything about anything, and (2) they were probably under political pressure to get him off campus by any means necessary. So they did.
Mother, I still don’t see what responsibility has to do with the quote I referenced. I’m trying to figure out what you meant by the robot metaphor and the nature of doing what women want (with their bodies).
“Love in the 21st century…maybe someone should just invent the perfect male robot substitute for some of these young women they can program the robot to do exactly what they want it to do and nothing more, nothing less.”
I’m not trying to be difficult. I just don’t get your point.
“From your perspective, what types of parenting practices, education or school policies have the most/best impact on reducing the incidences of sexual assault? Are there some schools that get it more right than others? Or some areas of the country?”
I only see the results when things go wrong, so I’m particularly badly placed to say who’s doing it right. The Canadian study is my new religion, though – I want to see a whole lot more of that kind of research.
@Hanna But you’ve worked with many young men in the gray zone to nearly red to the red zone. Would you hazard an opinion as to what kind of messages would get through before the first offense? I liked the video that was put out - what to do with a drunk female https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZxv5WCWivM.
I’ve had this idea that another approach would be to appeal to self interest. Kind of a “How to get laid without being rapey”.
Yes, I think in general convincing people to act in their own self-interest is a whole lot easier than convincing them to act in other people’s interest.
When applications are finished, I tell the young men in my regular practice about the young men in my specialized practice. I tell them, “I never want to see you in my office again unless you’re applying to law school. Let me tell you about the work I do for some guys like you. I hope you never need it.”
I have no idea if they believe me, if it changes their behavior … I’m one more grownup telling them what to do. Research might show that it makes them go out and act more reckless. Who knows?
“I never want to see you in my office again unless you’re applying to law school. Let me tell you about the work I do for some guys like you. I hope you never need it.” - that’s great.
With a boy still in college, this terrifies me. I cannot believe that a young man could be expelled (expelled!) for what the girl agrees was mutual, consensual oral sex…just because she was scared. Was there any evidence that he knew she was scared and privately did not consent?
I’m with whoever said (upthread) that these matters need to be referred to the real police. I understand that there can be violations of a college code of conduct that are not necessarily criminal violations, but sexual assault with the punishment of expulsion should not be treated as a conduct violation. It should be treated as a crime with real evidentiary standards applied.
I would think that the colleges themselves would be better served by adopting a formal policy of police referral in these cases. Removes them from the liability of making a poor decision - either way - and puts it in the hands of trained professionals who know how to handle these things with rape kits, etc.
Absolutely. I’ve said it before, if you have a kid/young adult who has been accused of something that doesn’t meet the smell test, I’d hire a lawyer and if necessary want to file an injunction with the college to stop them from doing ANYTHING hastily. As a parent you’re going to be out alot of money anyway if they get expelled or you have to hire someone to help them find a different college…might as well start off with the lawyer. If I had a daughter I’d make sure there was a police report to protect her and her rights as well as protect her with legal records and a PPO if you think she needs it and to create a paper trail for any possible legal proceeding the person she accused might happen to file if his education gets derailed and his parents lose a ton of money. Colleges and universities are pretty incompetent at this stuff and should stick with education.
“what the girl agrees was mutual, consensual oral sex…just because she was scared. Was there any evidence that he knew she was scared and privately did not consent?”
Critical distinction: she doesn’t agree that it was consensual, just that she didn’t say no or tell him to leave. He says he had no idea that she was scared or unwilling.
@prospect1, no police department would have bothered with this, and the girl and the college surely knew that. Rape kits wouldn’t show anything after coerced oral sex. Even the college didn’t find that he’d used force, only that he failed to get affirmative verbal consent. Police don’t care about that.
@Hanna, is “yes means yes” the standard now to avoid expulsion? I still don’t understand that outcome. What you are saying is that colleges (or at least this particular college) has a stricter definition of “consent” than what is used in a criminal proceeding?
“What you are saying is that colleges (or at least this particular college) has a stricter definition of “consent” than what is used in a criminal proceeding?”
Yes, many colleges are using that standard now…and they aren’t always doing a good job of communicating the new rule to the students.
@momofthreeboys: Thanks for posting about the Yeasin decision. I’m glad they agreed that the conduct was off campus though I am disappointed (but not surprised) that they didn’t reach the First Amendment issue. Still, good news for the kid.