Men fight back against sex assault charges

“But rape is “special” because sex has such an odd role in American society.”

I don’t think that’s why rape is special. It’s special because we all agree that the same actions on the offender’s part become a crime or not a crime depending on the wishes of the victim. Gouging out someone’s eye or cutting their finger off is ALWAYS a crime, even in the weird circumstance where the victim was willing. But the same act of intercourse is affection to a willing party and a crime on an unwilling party.

I think if you examine the issue you’ll discover that rape is thought to be terrible in places that are not the United States.

http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/12704386/woman-accused-former-florida-state-qb-jameis-winston-2012-rape-files-civil-lawsuit

Now what happens if Winston settles the case? Winston is guilty, right? :wink:

After running around the hamster wheel on this topic for 6 months, I’ve come to believe that the crux of the problem is that the definition of “drunk” in “drunk sex” is a moving target.

As I said before even the terms are variable and weighted: drunk, very drunk, impaired, intoxicated, incapacitated, under the influence. If we start with @cardinalfang’s premise “that the level of intoxication be such that the victim is incapable of exercising the judgment required to decide whether to consent to intercourse” then we’re faced with a Mount Everest of possibilities in how we define the level of intoxication.

(At this point, I’m not convinced that college students are capable of exercising judgment about sex under any circumstances!)

Judgment – good or bad – is a slippery thing. What seems like a good idea at one point, may seem less so in retrospect. Consuming alcohol may surely decrease inhibitions, but how much alcohol and which acts and with whom are wildly variable depending on the people, the situation and the phase of the moon.

The argument circles back on itself: I used bad judgment when I consented; therefore, I must have been over the level of intoxication. Otherwise I would have exercised good judgment and told the guy to get lost.

I think that’s what’s going on in so many of these cases, pure and simple regret, guilt, remorse – sometimes with a sprinkling of revenge. Allowing the accuser to control the how drunk is too drunk decision is an easy out for those suffering from regret sex, one often encouraged by victim advocates.

Unless they can draw on physical evidence or multiple witnesses, it’s impossible for college committees to judge the accuser’s level of intoxication, weeks or months after the event. Thus under the OCR’s mandate of preponderance of evidence they have no choice but to give the accuser the benefit of the doubt. Once they’ve established that the accuser is more likely than not to have been drunk enough to do something she may not have done while sober (which no one really knows) then Bingo! it must be sexual assault.

My conclusion is that absent persuasive evidence, the colleges should not be deciding felony rape responsibility one way or another. The consequences are just too severe. There should be a “We just don’t know” category leading to counselling for all parties.

@dstark, what makes you think Winston (or FSU) will settle out of court? My guess is that Winston’s lawyers will go to trial based on the fact that he was cleared twice, by the police and the university. They may even file a counter claim for defamation.

For the college, I’m not so sure. So many procedural errors over the course of 2+ years that they may want to reach a fast settlement. Either way, Oh what a circus this is going to be.

I don’t know if Winston is going to settle, but if he does…he is guilty. Right?

Winston is going to be a pro football player. He may not want his picture on tv over and over again…“There goes Jameis Winston , the accused rapist.”.

The civil case may not go as well for Winston.

The police screwed up the case. The reasonable doubt standard was tough. The DA said something bad happened that night.

The university has its own problems.

The civil case standard is 50 percent plus.

One thing about the civil case, Winston’s friends are going to have to testify. Maybe we will find out why one of Winston’s friends destroyed evidence.

Winston is not going to be able to sit in the court room and read a statement. There is going to be cross examination. I doubt the judge is going to ask Winston a question or two to help his case. :slight_smile:

Does Winston have to testify, if there’s a trial? I’m betting he settles.

http://www.tallahassee.com/story/news/2015/04/16/woman-files-civil-lawsuit-accusing-jameis-winston-of-rape/25897461/

Will see…

Just to be clear I’m not a fan of Winston and I don’t care much about his brilliant career. I just think this case has already aroused so much venomous emotion on both sides that it will be hard for either to back down. Here’s the filing if anyone’s interested in rehashing the details.
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/04/16/sports/football/document-civil-lawuit-against-jameis-winston.html

Number 13 in the lawsuit… Looks like the cab driver was found.

Number 24 in the lawsuit, there is another woman who claims she was sexually assaulted by Winston.

Number 32…one of the witnesses of the alleged assault was pretty upset about something.

Well, if Winston settles for a relatively small amount of money, what does that mean? Or if they settle, and the amount is secret, and the settlement agreement prevents the accuser from saying anything else about Winston, what does that mean? People often settle cases that they think they could win, if the amount is small enough.

Of course people settle cases they think they can win. I did. I wrote earlier that people settle for various reasons and settling doesn’t mean they are guilty.

I settled a case because there was a tiny chance I could lose a ton of money…and I did not want to spend any more time thinking about the case or dealing with anybody involved in the case. Can’t stand most of the people on both sides. :slight_smile:

The settlement still cost me a lot of money and I am not 100 percent sure I should have settled. The case is bogus.
A few people have settled but the majority have not settled. I told one friend who did not settle I don’t want to hear about the case ever again. The case makes me sick and I told my friend when you win the case it is not going to make me feel better. :slight_smile:

I think @dstark was being facetious when he said “if he settles he’s guilty right”. Another poster earlier in the thread contended that when a university settles it is evidence of guilt, or that they do not think they would prevail at trial.

Well, we’ll see what Winston does. At any rate, Kinsman may not accept a private settlement. She’s not asking for much money in damages, but as her lawyer says “since others have refused to hold him accountable, our client will.”

Another case of a male suing his college Title IX violations, this time at Reed College for defamation, breach of contract, and wrongful expulsion. According to John Doe’s filing, he and the accuser were a couple. They engaged in several group sex sessions with another student and planned others. Later, they had an acrimonious break up.

Jane Roe claimed the group sex was coerced and that John Doe shared a sex video of Jane Roe with other students, though no one who had actually seen the video was ever located.

The board, consisting of three students, a librarian and an associate registrar, decided that Jane Roe couldn’t consent because “she was under the influence of a judgment-impairing substance” (ecstasy). John Doe was expelled.

John Doe’s filing cites the usual litany of complaints against the college’s Title IX policies and procedures: timing, bias, handling of witnesses.

In this case there actually were eye witnesses who provided sworn statements: A female student AM who participated in the threesome denied that Jane had been coerced and cited communication with Jane about future engagements. Another female student ML stated that Jane solicited her participation (unsuccessfully). Neither AM nor ML were compelled to testify before the panel and their statements were downplayed.

So not only was the accuser deemed too impaired to consent, but also the witnesses were considered too impaired to judge the accuser’s level of impairment. The twist here is that one of the witnesses was actually a participant, even an initiator, yet she was not charged.

http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2015/04/reed_college_students_group_se.html
https://s3.amazonaws.com/s3.■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■/documents/1907168/reed-lawsuit.pdf

Momrath, where did you read that Erica is not suing for much money?

The filing reads “Plaintiff respectively demands judgment against defendant for money damages in excess of $15,000 . . .”

I guess “in excess” could allow the jury to award her a whole lot more, but it seems if she wanted millions she would have asked for it. By comparison, the Boston College student asked for damages “not less than $3,000,000.” Maybe I’ve misunderstood how these things work.

Momrath, Erica is asking the court to determine damages.

Same as John Doe in the Reed case. The John Doe complaint reads poorly for Reed. I wonder what Reed’s response is going to be.

One thing about the Reed case is John admitted he committed a felony. Possession of ecstacy is a felony. Maybe Jane admitted to committing to a felony too. That is a little unclear to me.

I don’t know why witnesses aren’t allowed in these cases. Makes no sense.

I don’t know what is going on at Reed but John could be in jail.

We need a little more information.

Ok…I guess jail time is not mandatory for ecstacy use.

http://www.oregoncrimes.com/drugs.htm

It appears to me that all four – John, Jane, AM and ML – admitted to using ecstasy. I don’t think the use of ecstasy was one of the charges against John, but according to the complaint his reputation for using and possibly selling drugs influenced the college’s decision.

Momrath, ok.