Meningitis misdiagnosed in college student, with tragic consequences

<p>Here is a question for the docs/nurses/interested parties here: What are the side effects or possible complications related to the meng. vaccine? We have never vaccinated our kids for anything and while this was “suggested” by the college for students, we haven’t advised eldest S to get it yet.</p>

<p>Not to vaccinate could surely be its own thread here with lots of arguments pro and con… the only disease any of our kids ever got that we know about is my D got whooping cough when she was 6. She had a mild cough for about 3 weeks (mostly at night). Oh, and we ALL (including Mom and DAD!) got chicken pox in 2005.</p>

<p>I am so sorry for this poor young woman at Penn. My question: did the brother not realize Sis was declining? As parents we might have been more in tune to our children’s health and “how they are feeling.” Maybe the bro didn’t realize his sister was in trouble, or didn’t realize it in time.</p>

<p>"Not to vaccinate could surely be its own thread here with lots of arguments pro and con… "</p>

<p>You got that right. Maybe we can talk about the whole forcing patients to accept treatment vs. allowing patients to make choices on another thread.</p>

<p>With all due respect, fencersmom-- were your kids home schooled? How would you be able to send the kids to school if they dont have required immunizations? Personally, the risk of not having immunizations greatly outweighs the risk of having them, but that’s just me, and I am in the healthcare field, so lean heavily in that direction</p>

<p>^^ fencersmother</p>

<p>Living near a large university, we’ve known of several tragic cases in the past five or six years, when students developed meningococcal meningitis. A student may show what appear to be cold symptoms for a few days, and then decline suddenly.</p>

<p>Information from our health center suggests that 5 to 10% of the population carries bacteria that cause meningitis, but in a harmless state. The incidence of meningococcal meningitis in the U.S. is somewhere from 1 to 3 per 100,000, and the estimated mortality rate varies from 2 to 10%. Some of those who live lose limbs or extremities.</p>

<p>Our entire family agreed on the desirability of this vaccine for our student starting college.</p>

<p>It should be mentioned that the current vaccine is about 85-90% effective against serogroups A, C, Y, and W-135, but unfortunately not B, which accounts for about 46% of the cases of meningococcal meningitis in the U.S.</p>

<p>I suggest you read more about the disease and vaccine, and then make a decision. Check on Menactra vaccine.</p>

<p>My younger s had the Menactra vaccine, and there was a side effect-- he made $100 and we got a free physical!! We asked about it at his last physical, and they happened to be doing a study of comprable batches (not different strengths or placebo vs active drug). He qualified, kept track of his temp (or lack thereof) and side effects (or lack thereof) for about 2 wks, went back for a follow-p visit and colected his check! So, both mom and child were happy!</p>

<p>A student at my daughter’s college just died from this also. I assume she was vaccinated as it’s mandatory for college entrance. I know the vaccine takes care of four of five strains. Thanks god there’s some kind of vaccine. It alarms me when I hear of those who don’t get vaccinated. The more people vaccinated,the less spread. It’s so sad and frightening and it seems we hear this story yearly.</p>

<p>There’s a concept in epidemiology known as “herd immunity”. That means that there is a “critical percentage” of the population that must be immune to a communicable disease in order to avoid epidemics. That percentage is rarely 100%; generally it’s about 80%-85%.</p>

<p>What that means in your children’s case, fencersmother, is that they likely did not get ill from such things as polio, measles, mumps, etc, because at least 85% of the other children were vaccinated and immune from the disease, not because of their own immune systems. The fact that so many other parents chose to vaccinate their children gave you the freedom not to. However, if the number of children vaccinated goes below that critical percentage of the population, we will see again epidemics of some very deadly but now relatively uncommon diseases. </p>

<p>In some areas, where people have been scared of the vaccines, this is already happening. Over the years, there have been pockets of polio and measles; once the diseases start recurring, people start vaccinating again and the “mini-epidemics” have stopped. Of course, since we generally vaccinate against diseases with little to no effective treatment (or in the case of meningitis, treatment which is difficult to start early enough to be effective), the new herd immunity comes too late for the victims of the non-vaccination trend.</p>

<p>QuantMech: You said, “Information from our health center suggests that 5 to 10% of the population carries bacteria that cause meningitis, but in a harmless state.”</p>

<p>I have a question for you or anybody else knowledgeable in this area: Would it be possible to test people to see if they are carriers of the bacteria that causes meningitis? Please forgive me if this sounds naive. I just had the idea that if it was possible to test a person to see if they are carrying it, then if they later had symptoms consistent with meningitis, they could inform the health care provider of this information.</p>

<p>^^ sonsecty: Great question. I don’t know. Will ask around.</p>

<p>Thanks. I’ll be anxiously awaiting your reply!</p>

<p>My understanding of the situation is in fact just the opposite of what SS is suggesting. There’s a reason the carrier is not currently ill. Whatever it is, I think carriers are at lower, not higher risk of developing illness from a colonized microbe.</p>

<p>Of course, immune suppression for whatever reason could change this pretty quickly.</p>

<p>Fencersmom, I got whooping cough at 28 when I made the mistake of visiting my brother in NH one of those pockets of non-vaccinated kids. I have never ever been so sick in my life. I’d literally wake up in the middle of the night completely unable to breathe. I’d whoop and whoop trying to get air until I vomited. I wouldn’t wish the disease on anyone. Unfortunately the vaccines don’t last forever and the real danger is babies dying - adults rarely do.</p>

<p>fencersmother: Not to make this personal, but I always feel vaguely irritated at people who don’t vaccinate. Realistically, that approach is only possible because everyone else gets vaccinated - if everyone didn’t vaccinate, preventable disease would be running rampant. It just annoys me all the people who walk around with this “vaccination isn’t worth it” attitude, while they coast on the population immunity that everyone else’s vaccinated status confers on them.</p>

<p>All of the doctors I know more or less recommend vaccinating for everything. There’s essentially no risk, and lots of benefit. Menactra is an especially good vaccine, I’d get it.</p>

<p>^^ sonsecty</p>

<p>Still haven’t found definite data in response to your question, though bluedevilmike’s comments make good sense. A person who is not carrying the bacteria can contract meningococcal meningitis from a carrier who has no symptoms; and if a carrier’s immune system is weakened, the carrier might contract the disease. I don’t have information on relative risk yet, though.</p>

<p>Update about the serotypes: Information from the CDC states that serotype B (not covered by the vaccines) causes about 1/3 of cases in the U.S (not 46% as stated in my first post). It accounts for about 50% in children under one year, but C, Y, and W-135, all covered by the vaccine, account for about 75% of cases in people who are eleven and older–so the vaccine’s protection is greater than my first post indicated.</p>

<p>There is useful information at
<a href=“http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/rr5407a1.htm[/url]”>www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/rr5407a1.htm</a></p>

<p>1/42: The standard story among medical schools and hospitals is that it’s the local poor and uninsured who typically present with vastly more progressed diseases – cancers that could have been treated if only the patient had come in six months earlier, infections that would have been minor early but are now raging out of control.</p>

<p>One medical school in particular stands out in my memory, however. The professor there shook his head sadly. “We have all the usual problems of underservice, yeah, but actually… the worst cases we get, those are from the most affluent hospital population that we have.”</p>

<p>My puzzlement must have been obvious. He sighed and continued.</p>

<p>"These are the people who ignore slipped disks and go get acupuncture instead – and they don’t come until they’re really paralyzed. They do things like underwater births and bring us cyanotic babies. They try to treat their AIDS with a plant from Vietnam. The big one – the big one – is that they don’t get vaccines, and their kids get all kinds of terrible infections and die young. It’s really frustrating. We know some people are underserved. We know some people just don’t have the education, or the access to good medical care. Those people sadden us, and in our more irrational moments we get angry, but deep down we understand that it’s the fault of the health care system for not being there for them.</p>

<p>But then, we have people who really ought to know better. People for whom the system is open and accessible and even convenient. When people like this present to us with easy diseases – the kind that we could have fixed if only they had come in to see us – that’s frustrating. That’s genuinely frustrating.</p>

<p>Why do they only believe in medicine when things get really bad? If they didn’t like us before, what makes us so trustworthy in an emergency, after they’ve exhausted our ability to do anything?"</p>

<p>Theres usually a reason why people shy away from allopathic medicine in the first place-
Perhaps they had an experience where their fathers psychiatrist was treating him for suicidal depression but prescribed enough medication for 90 days to save money.</p>

<p>Maybe their daughter was given multiple transfusions in the days immediately preceding testing of the blood supply for HIV, however her doctor assured her, she wouldn’t need to be tested until she was 13 or so and sexually active ( because of course the only concern would be to others)</p>

<p>Perhaps they had a friend who picked up a nasty staph infection in the hospital that required a graft or knew someone who died after an elective surgery.</p>

<p>There are at least double the amount of vacinnations that were available when my kids were young.
I contracted Hep B without even knowing it, both my parents had meningitis before they even knew each other ( during the same epidemic)
Both my kids had very mild cases of chicken pox (not at same time)
Id rather selectively vaccinate, than just vaccinate for every thing the drug company is trying to sell.</p>

<p>I do know drs who are incensed that some women act like pregnancy isn’t an illness and doesn’t have to be micromanaged and that parents whose children are ill, want to have some say over treatment- but that doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t be informed consumers and look for 2nd opinions just as we would when we look for any other service</p>

<p>1.) Physicians make errors, and sometimes quite severe ones. For these errors, patients who have suffered should have our – is it presumptuous of me to speak for the profession? – apologies. There’s no excusing these oversights.</p>

<p>2.) The field of medicine is still rapidly evolving. Many times we make new scientific discoveries that alter the way we’d previously perceived a disease or a treatment. I’m in the middle of reading Reynolds Price’s A Whole New Life, and he often talks about missing more powerful, more precise treatments by a few months. Price, however, does not hold such advances against the field of medicine as a whole – after all, it is still modern medicine that made the improvements. He speaks with surprising grace of the emergence of technologies which spared him some pain once they were implemented. We’re doing the best we can, both in research and in treatment, and our best efforts in the former often lead to rapid changes in the latter. We apologize if there’s any confusion, but we’re also not about to slow the rate of change just so that we can protect our own reputations.</p>

<p>3.) The persistence of hospital infections is one of the major failures of modern medicine. For this you’ll find no defense from me.</p>

<p>4.) Where you will not find me yielding ground is on vaccines, especially if (as I believe is the case) they have been cleared of thimerosol, which was of unclear harm to begin with. You may have had mild personal and familial experiences with hepatitis and meningitis, but had they become severe there might have been little that modern medicine could have done to fix them. These are serious diseases – as I hope this very thread makes clear – and if you were lucky enough to have gotten light courses of illness, you should not be encouraging others to bank on that same luck.</p>

<p>And in the meanwhile, what if you had been carrying contagious diseases? What if you had passed meningitis, mild in your case, to an elderly parent? Or a young child?</p>

<p>The concern with chicken pox, by the way, isn’t actually chicken pox. Since the virus responsible never clears out of your system, physicians are actually worried about the latent infection which can eventually become shingles – a very painful, debilitating, and uncurable disease.</p>

<p>5.) Nobody sane would suggest that pregnancy is a disease, and of course there is such a thing as overmanagement. Still, we’re well served to remember that the dramatic reductions in infant and maternal mortality are largely attributable to advances made in modern medicine – and that we neglect the attention of responsible physicians at the peril of inviting the dangers of that primitive, dangerous era.</p>

<p>6.) Within limits, second opinions should always be welcomed, and I recognize that this isn’t always the case. (Doctor-shopping until you find one willing to do whatever you ask, of course, is rightly understood as unsafe behavior.) However, second opinions should be provided by physicians with allopathic or osteopathic credentials. Ultimately, after all, these are the people you will turn to when all else is burning down around you. You’re exactly right: just as you would do when you look for any other service. You double check “your” expert, in case he’s failing to inform you completely or in case he’s making a mistake – but you use other professionals to do the double-checking.</p>

<p>When underwater births result in a half-drowned baby, or failure to vaccinate has resulted in a serious case of measles, or when herbal supplements turn out not to stop the spread of HIV, these patients invariably end up in allopathic hospitals anyway. Why the sudden show of faith?</p>

<p>“Perhaps they had an experience where their fathers psychiatrist was treating him for suicidal depression but prescribed enough medication for 90 days to save money.”</p>

<p>mmm…hard time ignoring this one…these are good points, but I can’t tell you how much time I’ve spent on the phone trying to explain why I DON’T want to give a 90 day supply of antidepressants, let alone a new one I don’t know a patient will tolerate. Surely no one is suggesting that saves the Psychiatrist money. I suppose it might somehow benifit the MD if he is part owner of an HMO . I seem to find it’s the drug benefit that was purchased, and the purchaser ( employer?) saved. If I don’t put my foot down the patient saves because he only pays one co-pay for three months. The other option is the patient paying face value at the local pharmacy ( vs. mail in) for the amount I think is clicially appropriate. But this is the tragic consequence thread…It is all so complicated, it is important to allow for the perspective of various players.</p>

<p>At least in our town, you can only get 1 month supply of a prescribed medication. You can later get refills without getting a new prescription (if the original one was for more than one month supply), but you have to pay the copay for each refill.</p>

<p>Generally prescription limits of 30 days are rules of your prescription benfit. Some plans have a seperate benefit for chronic meds, thus the ninety day mail in option. Unfortunately, this benefit sometimes conflicts with what makes clinical sense.</p>