Menlo Park dad's "Playborhood" and anti-helicoptering

Parent Cafe
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I would’ve loved to have had a backyard playground like that. As for the comments that he doesn’t do it for girls there are just as many girls there playing in the pictures as boys.

Overall it looks great. The trampoline is built in the ground. Looks like he has big balloon balls to play in. Cool playhouse with slide. Yeah, sorta Disney. “Back in my day” we’d be jumping off the roof of the small playhouse with nothing to catch us at all.

Perhaps he’d like it better if there were woods and streams to run around in but lacking that option he’s built a pretty good space. It’s fenced in. It’s contained. And no you don’t need a parent looking over your shoulder 24/7–I agree totally. If someone is truly a bully and can’t be handled then come get me.
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We always had fun because we grew up in a neighborhood full of kids. Mine were lucky in that respect too. We climbed trees, rode bikes everywhere, could play group games. Nobody worried about us nor kept tabs on us until dinner.
I think adults were more welcoming to us also. We knew which old lady would have cookies for us and let us play in her yard. Kids do need their own social circle and this guy is trying to create that for his kids. It’s tough to be a kid with nobody to play with.

In England there is a very successful “playground” I read about that is really just some fenced off acreage with streams, woods, old junk stuff. Places to explore. People drop their kids off to play. No supervision except somebody at a little hut who is only there to take money and in case of dire emergency… No parents are allowed in nor able to stay. Strictly kids only. No playground equipment just kids and imaginations. It was founded because of “parent play helicopters” Pretty sure you sign a release!

The one thing I’d do differently–nobody climbs on the roof of my house! Can’t believe he allows that to happen.

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I have reread this article a few times, trying to figure out what problem this guy is trying to solve. Also, I don’t live too far from him, and I am a stay at home mom, so this article pushed a couple of my buttons…

Is he solving this? - ““kids have to find their own balance of power.” He wants his boys to create their own society governed by its own rules.” Kids do this, but in the early years a little guidance is a good thing. By middle school, and I think his oldest may be almost there, he will see it more clearly. For now, he is affecting the balance of power by making such an effort to have the “cool” house.

Or this? - “boys today (his focus is on boys) are being deprived of masculine experiences by overprotective moms, who are allowed to dominate passive dads.” Sweeping generalization, maybe this is an issue for him, not my experience at all.

Or this? - “Part of what the wealthy feel they are buying is privacy and the ability to be choosy about whom they socialize with. Mike was determined that his kids would not only know their neighbors but would also see them, every day.”

I see what he is saying about neighborhoods in his area not having packs of kids running through them, but communities do exist. If he doesn’t want to get involved in scouts or sports or whatever, how is he going to meet people with kids his kids’ ages? Why doesn’t he have kids over after school? Honestly, my neighbors are an elderly woman and a family with boys in k and 1st. I have two daughters in 8th and 12th. I love my neighbors and see them often, we see each other every day and check in, but they aren’t going to be my kids’ best friends. We have our neighborhood, school, sports: all are our communities.

My youngest is not too far from his oldest and at this point my kids have phones and are connected to their friends - the “neighborhood” is much larger than the block we live on. If my kids want to get together with other kids, they do. I know longer manage, much less micromanage, their social lives.

Side note: What is up with the loud music on the playhouse stereo? Lots of people in this area have the high end play house, in ground trampoline, all the trappings of the “perfect childhood”, but the stereo? Loud music at a party every now and then is one thing, but every time the kids are out playing - that would be a fight with most neighbors.

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Helping my kid–" If he doesn’t want to get involved in scouts or sports or whatever, how is he going to meet people with kids his kids’ ages? Why doesn’t he have kids over after school? "

You hit the nail on the head. You’re just on the opposite side of his argument.
Kids should not have to join organized (by adults, rules by adults, supervised by adults) activities to meet one another and engage in play. He’s trying to create an environment where kids are welcome to interact on their own without parental involvement. It’s not perfect but he’s trying. He DOES have kids over after school.
It won’t last forever but it is a crucial time in kid’s development.

" at this point my kids have phones and are connected to their friends - the “neighborhood” is much larger than the block we live on. If my kids want to get together with other kids, they do. I know longer manage, much less micromanage, their social lives."

He doesn’t want kids connected by phone. He wants actual face-to-face time.
He doesn’t want parents to have to drive their kids around for a “play date”. He is trying to create that community that many of us grew up with. But he’s only got his back yard–we had a whole town.

We might have felt more independent than we actually were (our parents were pretty connected) but we did feel some freedom and in control. It wasn’t always pretty–we had bullies (sometimes the same person as your “best friend”), got hurt but learned that not everything goes your way.

Your comment of “I no longer manage their social lives” is part of his reasoning.
You aren’t invited to the kid’s tea party and should never had been.

" I love my neighbors and see them often, we see each other every day and check in, but they aren’t going to be my kids’ best friends. We have our neighborhood, school, sports: all are our communities."

No, your same age neighbors aren’t your kid’s best friends. Nobody said they needed to be (although you’d be surprised perhaps). But at least you know them and so (hopefully) do your kids.
It is great social training. “Don’t mess with ole mean Ms. Cratchet” 'cause she hates little kids is good advice.
And again school and sports are all organized by adults. There IS a difference. A “take it or leave it” difference. “How much do you want to be part of the group?” “Is it worth it?” It only happens on the kid’s schedule.

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“You aren’t invited to the kid’s tea party and should never had been”

Hmm, that is something to think about. I wasn’t really part of the tea party in a literal sense, but I guess I had to give permission and possibly help with transportation. I would pick up my kid from school or whatever, and some kid(s) would want to come over to play. Kids came over after school and did whatever they wanted. We didn’t have all the stuff this guy did, but they could walk to the store for an ice cream, or over to the school playground, or down to the creek to find salamanders or get poison oak, ha, ha. We had a dog the kids liked to walk, or some kids liked to play with the cat. I didn’t really play with the kids, but I was around the house and available to them if they needed something. Some nanny or parent would show up before dinner to pick them up. In a way they had more freedom than his kids because they could leave the backyard, but on the other hand, you are right, begin and end times are determined by parent schedules.

So maybe that “picking up” is too much effort and involvement with the parents, maybe it would be better if kids could just walk next door. I can see that, and how it would be nice. I think families make do with what they have - there are a lot of great things about our community - unfortunately it is not exactly walkable for little kids so lots of kids houses were just too far away and parents had to be involved. My kids remember it all as being a lot of fun, and yes they fought with friends at times, and there were bullies, but somehow it sorted itself out. It wasn’t the same as how I grew up, but I think it is a perfectly reasonable way to spend the elementary school years.

If I did live in a community like his (where there are lots of kids, but they aren’t coming over) and I wanted to encourage more of a neighborhood feeling, I don’t think I would have an article written where I criticized neighborhood parents and second guessed marriages, and basically bragged about letting my kids on the roof, that seems odd to me. Alienating the neighborhood isn’t going to encourage kids to hang out with his kids. I would be amazed if his neighbors are even talking to him. To me, the whole thing smells of a business plan - Stanford grad dad shakes up Silicon Valley parenting - the book will be out next fall.

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Yup. ^^Stanford dad v Tiger Mother.

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Here’s what I remember from my childhood: I remember the day that I a was about 10 or 12 years old walking my dog to to the park about half a mile away, and when I was half way there encountered some scared kids running toward me, telling me that a kid playing around some construction equipment on one end of the park had been hurt. I turned around and ran home, and told my stay-at-home mom --she called for an ambulance. Then we drove over to the park – when we got there the ambulance was already there (probably others had called as well).

The kid was a 9 year old girl who lived around the block from us. I didn’t know her. She died.

I didn’t hover over my kids - there is a lot of open space in our area, and my kids could ride their bikes and explore the hills whenever they wanted… but the point is, accidents happen. Sometimes in situations that are inherently risky, and sometimes in situations that should be safe – like when my grandson broke his leg at age 3 tripping over a small toy in a supervised pre-school setting. (He had what is termed a “toddler’s fracture” of the tibia, caused by a situation that would only result in a twisted ankle for an older child or an adult).

The parent in this article is operating what is termed in law as an “attractive nuisance” – children will get hurt on his property, inevitably-- it is really only a matter of time. His view of probabilities is mistaken because he is asking, “what are the odds of a given kid falling off the roof on any given occasion” vs. “what are the odds over time of one kid falling out of multiple occasions involving multiple kids?” His big mistake - in terms of liability --is not only his lack of direct supervision of kids (fairly typical in most homes, actually) – but the open door policy of inviting neighborhood kids to play when no one is home.

So basically, it’s stupid. Someone is going to get hurt, sooner or later–and his practices and attitude are going to increase the chances that it will be a lawsuit and that a lawyer will hold out for high end damages.

It wouldn’t diminish the value of his kids’ play experiencing to have installed netting or rails where appropriate, and to keep the kids off the roof of the house — and to put a lock on his gate and limit the open-door policy to times when a parent and at least one of his own kids was at home.

We all take risks with our kids and with other kids – every time we put the kids in a car there is a risk involved. It’s one thing to accept and cope with ordinary risk, or to mistakenly fail to anticipate risk … quite another to intentionally create a risky environment.

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“Back in my day” we used to have a lot more large play spaces available. We could go down to the school fields and play on the play ground, run around the track,play basketball at the outside hoops, kick a ball around on weekends or after school on our own. Easy bike ride.
The high school had a huge pool which was open pretty late for public use (it did have set hours).

Now nothing is open but public parks and they have hours also. School grounds are off limits and most fenced in… Even the boy scouts who meet at the elementary school are confined to the cafeteria rather than being able to go outside on the field and play games. Community centers have scheduled activities and you have to reserve times. All activities are organized by adults it appears except for an occasional ping pong game.

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My kids were able to ride bikes in the neighborhood (not at age 5, but late elementary school), play at the park without adult supervision, yet still played organized sports and yes, played lots of video games (it is cold and dark after school in the winter in the NE). Yes, in early elementary school there were “playdates” some planned in advance and some as “come overs” or “go overs” arranged spontaneously after school by request to either me or my sitter at school pickup where a parent or sitter was in charge. One of mine had no kids his own age on our street, so had to go farther afield. It surprises me that most kids do not have that experience. At times, we had to kick them outside to play but other times they chose to go. Biking, basketball, skateboarding, soccer or football at a park or school, even some airsoft guns (I would not buy one but he borrowed them at timse, luckily that phase did not last long) - all without parents present. My kids even went on the roof over our porch, but it was not pitched and only about 10 feet high.

The article portrays this guy as someone who has the fantasy that nothing bad can happen simply because nothing bad has happened yet. Letting little kids climb up a 10-foot ladder to an attic, through a hatch, onto a multi-story home’s roof seems irresponsible, not freeing. Letting them jump off the playhouse roof onto a trampoline with no sides also looks dangerous, but otherwise the yard looks like fun.

There may be excessive worry about certain dangers today. Playgrounds that 5 year olds find “babyish” have signage saying they are for ages 6-12 due to concerns about liability. Sledding hills are closing down, again concerns about liability. Kids are generally not at risk for kidnapping walking to a neighbor’s home in a safe neighborhood.

This reminds me of the ridiculous posts about how great life was in the good old days with no car seats or seatbelts for kids or bike helmets and how we all survived - except of course that the ones who didn’t survive are not around to post on social media.

Edited to add: The emphasis on boys need this and moms are the problem was a further big negative for me in this article. Reading the online comments is interesting as always.

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An aside: “This reminds me of the ridiculous posts about how great life was in the good old days with no car seats or seatbelts for kids or bike helmets and how we all survived - except of course that the ones who didn’t survive are not around to post on social media.”

Studies show seat belts save lives. Car seats are best for kids under two and then seat belts work just as well…
Bike helmets have not been shown to save lives (but everyone has a story).

Back to our regular programming.

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But it is pretty much accepted that bike helmets reduce head injuries - the extent to which that is true varies. The opponents of mandatory helmet laws do not dispute that finding, but argue that the laws have other unintended consequences such as reducing ridership or suggesting that bike riding is inherently dangerous.

Seat belt laws now require kids in car seats well over the age of 2 in many states, and in booster seats up to age 8. I don’t believe a seat belt alone is safe for a 2yo. The seat belt does not sit correctly across their body.

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Sorry for the sidetrack: Car seats before a seat belt fits correctly equals good–and they do make adjusters.
Booster seats to age 8 are an invention of the car seat industry to sell car seats. No studies support it.

And I apologize. This wasn’t a car seat thread but I can’t help myself at times.

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I can understand some of what the guy is driving at, where kids from an early age are hovered over, scheduled,processed and otherwise set to do things that are ‘important’, ‘drive them forward’ and all the other stuff too many parents do. I think this applies to boys and girls, this isn’t about emasculating boys (sorry, I have heard that said by too many people and it often comes down to things like bullying or physically intimidating other kids as being ‘learning to be men’), rather it is about kids learning, within boundaries, the kind of things they will need as adults.

My dad used to say that he could do a lot of things for us, but he couldn’t take the fall for us when we failed, that while he could try and help us understand the difference between exploring and doing things and being stupid, in the end it is our life, and we will have failures, get hurt at times, and that that is part of life, too. Too many parents are attempting to program their kids from the time they are little to be the ‘kind of adult the parents want’, when that includes not letting the kid find out for herself/himself what that is.

That doesn’t mean being foolhardy, either. My jaw hit the ground the other day when I saw an interview with Mike Ditka, and they asked him if knowing what he knows about concussions and such, would he let a kid of his play football, and he said no, he would encourage them to play other sports. There is a difference between letting a kid do things that are knowingly dangerous (letting a kid play around with electronic equipment with high voltages) and letting them have some freedom, time to explore things without the parents directing it, time to play with friends without being scheduled and organized. We can’t recreate the world of when we grew up, it was a different world (even when I was growing up, for example, pickup sports games were a dying breed, and this was 40 years ago or more), but we can let kids, while keeping an eye on them, interact with each other, play, explore, etc without trying to protect them from all harm.

It is hard, as a parent we don’t want our kids to be hurt, we don’t want to them to fall, we don’t want them to be disappointed, but it is going to happen, it is part of growing up. Sure, a kid climbing a tree can get hurt, but locking them up in the house figuratively isn’t the answer to that, kids should have places where they can play, where they can interact, make their own rules, and our job is to make sure that they understand consequences and also things that might get them hurt, things that might hurt others, and work from there. Yes, if kids ride bikes, they can fall off and break and arm or get scraped up, if kids run around they can get hurt, if kids play baseball together kids can get hurt, but does it make sense to ban anything where they might get hurt? When I was a kid, 7,8 years old, I was learning how to wire electric circuits, I also was starting to do things on cars, and I got burns from time to time, I got bruises and banged up doing things, but I also learned how to do things, too (and yes, I had someone keeping an eye on me).

My friends and I rode bikes to various places, and we went "exploring’, when I was young there was an old abandoned dairy farm that could be reached by following a ‘river’ (a creek) through woods and a plain created by high tension poles and wires, there also was an old abandoned swimming hole there that was fun (not to swim, but the old buildings they had there, snack shacks, cabanas, etc). We did some dangerous things, like climb on the roof of the fair building or climb up inside a silo that was there, but we also generally had older kids with us, too, and there was a kind of self leveling there. Not saying that was the smartest thing in the world to do (and when we got ot be teens, some of the things we were exploring today would likely get Homeland Security after us) , but we learned a lot, too. Sometimes doing things to do them is a wonderful thing, and too many kids are growing up where the only things they can do are things the parents have decided are ‘worthwhile’ and ‘safe’, and they often choose things the kid can’t get hurt at, emotionally or physically, and that is a problem.

Like I said, I like the concept of this article, but I find like others do that the guy is too far the other way, that it isn’t about boy/girl (there were several girls that were part of the ‘gang’ I hung out with when I was young, who were doing the same stuff we were doing, no one thought twice about it), it is about letting kids be kids and within a framework, do what kids are supposed to be doing. We have kind of gone back to the notion of childhood in the early Victorian age, where kids were seen as ‘little adults’ and were supposed to behave like that, and that is tragic to me.

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I’m pretty sure my kids (DS is 30 and and DD is 31) would be happy to tell anyone that I was a protective helicopter-ish mom, who worried (and still worries) a lot about their safety and well-being. I certainly did NOT allow them to jump off the roof or swim without supervision or bicycle without helmets. Etc. And yet, somehow, my kids came out risk-takers. My daughter has hiked the Washington section of the PCT (with a friend for most of it, but not all) and also biked across the country (alone for most of it). She was hit by a car while cycling two years before that trip and credits her helmet with saving her brain. My son has done deep-water SCUBA diving (depths below 500 feet) before giving that up (“too many of my friends have died”) to become a competitive formation skydiver (and I have photos of him doing night skydives while wearing pyrotechnics (fireworks)).

I’m pretty sure that a playground that allows kids to take risks is NOT what it takes to teach children creativity or entrepreneurship or risk taking. I think that having adults around who help them navigate the world, including its risks and excitements and benefits, makes much more of a difference.

I remember pretty well some of the truly dangerous things my friends and I did as children. Most of them resulted from a dare by one person–and no one would then admit it was a bad idea. I also remember that my mother hired a gymnastics coach to teach my sister and I how to fall safely after she found us doing somersaults off the second floor landing onto couch cushions on the floor fifteen feet below. (Those lessons have proved invaluable; every time I trip while trail running and land on my left shoulder instead of my hands I thank my mother.)

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The dad is trying too hard to be trendy IMO. He makes it sound like raising your kids the way most middle class families raise their kids is some big revelation…

The article seems to be targeting a specific demographic, rather than the population as a whole.

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@fractalmstr I think you are correct. Maybe if he moved away from Menlo Park, he’d naturally find a better environment to raise his kids. :slight_smile:

My kids had pretty free range and the younger kids in the neighborhood still do.

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I grew up in a housing project. There were dozens of kids and we all ran around playing massive games of tag and hide and go seek and the like. We were out from dawn till dusk in the summer. In the winter, many kids sledded down “Suicide Hill.” I didn’t, not because I was afraid of the hill but because I hate snow. I used to hide in the opposite stairwell with a book and give my winter clothing to my friends to wear and get wet. Then, right before it was time to go home, I would go outside for a few minutes, rub snow on my face and hands to make them cold and go inside. My parents never had a clue that I spent almost every winter day reading in the staircase because they never went outside to look for me. OTOH, I would have known in about 5 minutes if one of my own kids wasn’t outside when I sent them to play.

I remember my best friend’s brother and some other kids played “chicken” on the elevators. One kid died and my friend’s brother was seriously injured. My dad had to go to the hospital with the boy because the parents were at a wedding. We were watching my friend but the brother was 13 and on his own, which is something else not likely to happen today. Another family friend drove to the place where the wedding was to get the parents. The boy sustained serious facial scarring and grew a beard at the earliest opportunity; he also got into trouble with the law, but I am not sure if those tendencies were already in play when he went on top of that elevator. I was about 9 when it happened and it definitely impacted on my willingness to take risks as I got older.