<p>hawkette,
Glad to see you now acknowledging that evaluting and ranking colleges is not as easy as throwing some numbers around. You are coming around.
If you are still interested in the US News ranking methodology and its problems, I can suggest you start by reading some material on the web.
Google “US News and World Report college ranking criticism,” and read some of the top hits, and go from there. After that, if you want to talk about it, I can offer my opinions.</p>
<p>
Continuing with the math lesson… About 20% of Michigan undergrad are in engineering. Most people will agree that Michigan is one of the traditional powerhouses in engineering. There shouldn’t be any question about the placement of our engineering grads, in the industry or in top PhD programs.</p>
<p>And about top PhD programs, this is where top research universities like Berkeley, Michigan and Wisconsin have the advantage … remember the grad departmental peer assessment?</p>
<p>Btw, 93.3% of the Ross BBA grads received their first offer by graduation.</p>
<p>BC doesnt even have engineering, so I dont see why we would be comparing anything that has to with engineering</p>
<p>rabban,
You sound like you are about to wet your pants. The game is far from over and frankly is never over. </p>
<p>nefer,
Please read post # 18. </p>
<p>BTW, I would love to see USNWR completely revamp its rankings methodology. For example, give it some real teeth by judging colleges as employers do. Employers care about talent, intelligence, the ability to work with others, an ability to think critically, personal and professional values, work ethic, a measure of humility, etc. The vast, vast majority of employers in the real world could care less about how many research papers a certain professor or school has turned out. That is akin to a bunch of little girls putting on costume jewelry to try and impress each other of who is the prettiest.</p>
<p>Um, what is this? Have some respect, even to yourself. I pity you, I really do.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>What are you trying to do here? This is a message board, not a chatting room. No need to go colorful. </p>
<p>You don’t need to tell the world that you are a woman who is being “unloved” .</p>
<p>
My post was not intended to compare Michigan and BC in engineering. It is to account for a significant portion (20%) of the Michigan graduates … that we are doing just fine, thank you!</p>
<p>Btw, a top engineering program should be a plus for Michigan … more choices and more chances for collaborative research (yes, for the undergrads too).</p>
<p>Alexandre,
If only you and I were being paid by the word….</p>
<p>Ok, let’s check the math:
- Fairly hard numbers
156 Michigan grads into the Top 15 grad programs
150 Ross students going to Wall Street firms
50 Ross students getting jobs with Intel & other major employers
50 engineers getting jobs with Lockheed Martin & other major employers</p>
<ol>
<li><p>General Estimates (based on Alexandre’s opinion)
60 additional students into Michigan and other med schools
50 additional students into other highly regarded MBA programs
40 additional students into other highly regarded law programs
75 additional students into next tier of law schools </p></li>
<li><p>Wilder guestimates (based on almost nothing…er, I mean Alexandre’s opinion)<br>
500 students getting into “decent” grad programs</p></li>
<li><p>Unknown</p>
<h1>of students into Top 10 grad Engineering and PhD programs</h1></li>
</ol>
<p>Totals
406 Fairly Hard Numbers
225 Next tier of guesstimates
500 Next tier of wilder guesstimates</p>
<p>Ignoring the fact that virtually all of the MBA matriculants will not go to business school right out of undergrad (and this may also be true for a lesser number of the other disciplines), this is a total number of about 600-1000 students (out of an average class size of 6500). Certainly some of these jobs/schools have greater import than others, but for purposes of your calculation, we have weighed them all equally. Overall, I would describe the results as good, but the numbers don’t strike me as overly unique, particularly for a school the size of Michigan. Frankly, they are about what I would expect for one of the top state universities. And there are still an awfully large number of students that are not getting these “prized” jobs or grad school assignments. </p>
<p>Lots of schools send students to Wall Street or to work for Lockheed Martin or Intel. I’m not sure when getting a job with Merrill Lynch became the barometer for measuring college success, but it must be important to you. Anyway, I don’t know much about the University of Indiana or Fordham, but I wouldn’t be surprised to learn that they send as many or more to Wall Street (and I never hear Michigan posters accepting them as comparable schools). What does this prove? Very little other than Michigan is on the list of campuses where Merrill Lynch and others recruit. So are lots of schools. </p>
<p>Or how about schools that are visited by Lockheed Martin or Intel or Kraft Foods. It is nice that Michigan is on the list, but again so are lots of schools. How does this prove that Michigan is better than a BC? These big companies recruit at many other schools of lesser repute, eg, University of Minnesota, University of Washington, University of Arizona, San Jose State. If those schools place as many or more students at places like Intel or Kraft, does that make them institutionally equal or better than Michigan?</p>
<p>As for grad placement, again Michigan sends a nice number, but are these numbers (which have a large amount of guesswork built in) particularly unique? I don’t think so. And while we will never know, it would be interesting to see the acceptance rate for applicants from Michigan vs those from other schools. That would probably be the most telling statistic of how Michigan is viewed by these grad schools vs other undergraduate schools. </p>
<p>Perhaps Michigan’s greatest strength is the breadth of its academic offerings, eg, Boston College has no engineering and so no basis for comparison in this area. Does this necessarily make Michigan superior to BC? You would probably say yes, I would probably say no. To me, it just means that Michigan is a bigger school and thus, by its very nature, offers more. </p>
<p>My point all along is that Michigan, like many schools, has some talented students who go on to some nice jobs or high profile grad schools, but is their (absolute or relative) number so strong and compelling as to equate Michigan with America’s top private universities? The data that you provide is helpful to the discovery of the answer. My interpretation is that a portion of Michigan’s students (about 25%, or more than 6000 students) could be considered at a similar level to that of the top privates. There is a much larger percentage (about 50%) who appear pretty equal to a lot of other schools and there is a lower portion (about 25%) that would be considered comparatively weak. The top group likely does fairly well in job placement with “top” companies and “top” grad schools. But there are many more students at Michigan than this top group and their caliber is undeniably weaker. My interpretation is not that Michigan is bad, but rather that, taken as a whole, it is not excellent as you continually contend. I suspect that the vast majority of opinion outside of the Michigan booster ranks would concur with my assessment. </p>
<p>GoBlue81,
The Engineering Department at Michigan represents 17% of the student body and is the largest area of study. Given that engineering students typically score higher on SAT exams, I would expect them to have a strong positive impact on Michigan’s overall weighted SAT score, particularly its Math component. Michigan’s 75% level is 1420 overall and 730 for math. At Boston College, with no engineers, it is 1450 overall and 720 math. If it is true that Michigan engineers score higher on average than other Michigan students, that says to me that, among non-engineers, the overall SAT deficit of Michigan to Boston College is even greater than it appears. </p>
<p>(see continuation on next post)</p>
<p>I agree with your comment that having an engineering department at Michigan gives students more choices, but I’m not sure of the practical value of that vis-a-vis BC. Self-selection would tell us that students interested in Engineering would be highly unlikely to even apply to Boston College. Good for Michigan, but probably irrelevant for all of BC and nearly all of the 83% of Michigan students who are not engineers. </p>
<p>Michigan’s next largest group of students is in Social Sciences, representing 16% of the student body, or over 4000 students.</p>
<p>Rabban,
Sorry if you were offended-just trying to inject a little levity. Also, no pity needed or desired and certainly not from you.</p>
<p>UChicago doesnt have engineering either…so I suppose Michigan is superior to them as well?</p>
<p>And to Rabban, until you can make a positive contribution to this thread, just go away.</p>
<p>WHat? a little levity? O…… K…… Allow me to do the same to you.</p>
<p>Hawkette - Bring me a leather and lace- NOW!!! Oh btw, while you bring your-victoria-secret-camouflaged- body to me, don’t forget to bring a Rienzi CD – I especially enjoy Wagner while I am doing all the “werk”.</p>
<p>Ok- ckmets – that’s pretty much all of my contribution. Of course, you can also bring yourself to me. I will fix you up nicely as your little go-away present lol</p>
<p>please get a life, thats all I have to say</p>
<p>Lol don’t get mad. No need to get bitter. I was just injecting a little levity</p>
<p>The Engineering Dept of Michigan represents 19.5% of the student body, not 17% as you stated (4,978/25,555; <a href=“http://www.engin.umich.edu/about/ataglance.html)%5B/url%5D”>www.engin.umich.edu/about/ataglance.html)</a>. I am pointing this out as you are so keen on stats.</p>
<p>Also, BC’s overall SAT was 1420 not 1450 (<a href=“http://www.bc.edu/publications/factbook/meta-elements/pdf/06-07/06-07_freshman_admission.pdf)%5B/url%5D”>www.bc.edu/publications/factbook/meta-elements/pdf/06-07/06-07_freshman_admission.pdf)</a>.</p>
<p>
The benefit is in collaborative programs and research. In Michigan, engineering is involved with life sciences, computer science, geology, natural resources, etc. In fact, engineering may have a part in anything that is related to health sciences, energy and the environment.</p>
<p>
I don’t see how you can come to that conclusion based on my post.</p>
<p>Well as long as you were just giving stats about Michigan and not attempting to compare it to BC, the stats are fine. But if you are going to say that Michigan is better because if offers engineering and BC doesnt, then I disagree</p>
<p>GoBlue,
These are very minor points, but just for the record, my source for Michigan’s engineering size of 17% is the most recently available Common Data Set. Here is the link. Look in Section E. </p>
<p><a href=“Office of Budget and Planning”>http://sitemaker.umich.edu/obpinfo/files/umaa_cds2006.pdf</a></p>
<p>For Boston College, my source is their Fact Book showing a 1250 SAT level for the 75th percentile. Here is the link:</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.bc.edu/publications/factbook/meta-elements/pdf/06-07/06-07_freshman_admission.pdf[/url]”>http://www.bc.edu/publications/factbook/meta-elements/pdf/06-07/06-07_freshman_admission.pdf</a></p>
<p>I believe that the 1220 that you are referencing for BC is for last year (as reported by USNWR).</p>
<p>The more choices a school has the better and engineering is a very expensive major for a school to have so overall a school having engineering is “better”.</p>
<p>Ok, enough of hanky panky ;)</p>
<p>Switching gears,</p>
<p>I would agree with barron that one of the most important factors to consider for selecting college is Quality of Faculty. To have best minded professors teaching your class is very important. To me, this factor does differentiate colleges from vocational schools. This can be easily measurable by their research output, like number of patents, number of papers (written or oral presentations), number of a book or book chapters written, number of citations, amount of grants received and whatnot.</p>
<p>Luckily, there is a published NRC data pertaining to the factor</p>
<p>Best Research Programs (NRC)</p>
<p>Engineering: MIT-Berkeley-Stanford-Caltech-Princeton</p>
<p>Hard Sciences (inc. Math): MIT-Caltech-Berkeley-Princeton-Harvard-Stanford-Chicago</p>
<p>Biological Sciences: Harvard-MIT-Berkeley-Stanford-UCSD</p>
<p>Social Sciences: Berkeley-Harvard-Chicago-Stanford-Michigan-Wisconsin</p>
<p>Humanities : Harvard-Berkeley-Princeton-Columbia-Cornell</p>
<p>Every school mentioned in the survey is a truly world-class school.</p>