Middle-Class Gets a Raw Deal

lskinner · April 15, 2007, 9:20am

It seems to me that your argument rests on the principal that it is legitimate for colleges to act as socioeconomic levelers. I’m not sure I accept this, but if we follow this principal to its logical conclusion, then elite schools could and should reject applications from children of the very wealthy and/or powerful. For example, suppose Stanford had rejected Chelsea Clinton in favor of Joe Middle Class. Arguably, as the daughter of a president and/or senator, Chelsea is still better off after she graduates from State U. than is Joe Middle Class with a Stanford degree.

Not only do elite colleges not do this, I understand that they actually relax their standards of admission for the children of the very wealthy and powerful.

So it looks to me like the “socioeconomic leveling” argument is more of a rationalization than anything else.

In any event, a policy can still be unfair and dishonest even if one wouldn’t necessarily trade places with the beneficiaries of that policy. What if Harvard flat out refused to admit anyone from a family whose income was above $25k and less than $200k? Most people would agree this is unfair, but most middle class people still wouldn’t trade places with the lower income folks.

Just my humble opinion, of course.

OldinJersey · April 15, 2007, 4:25pm

lskinner - I don’t disagree that much of the funding and aid situation is rough and upsetting. I researched everything I could, including chances of aid, befor DD applied anywhere and yet still was off base with most of the schools. At one point she was very upset, asking why I’d even had her apply to these schools, since by then I had come to understand the schools were most likely going to cost as much or more than Rutgers, who gave her nothing at all.
I do think she had the right perception though - it was up to her parents to understand the difference between what numbers a college uses for need and what I think I can pay. (nothing, and that’s a hard fact)
Almost all the schools sent out loan info and payment plan info. Most of them sent me a letter stating that the family should be the main source of funding for students. The numbers showing that need is not met were clear.
That’s where I see a difference. I had the info, and so did everyone else. They could have known what was coming - I did by January, both from phone calls and posts here. ( When I saw Fordham ED students offered grants/merit/loans that included a parent bill 4 x the EFC, I knew that she’d have to cross them off her list of possible places to attend)
This is with a low EFC. If the profile says you can afford 1/2 your take-home salary, there are some tidy assets out there, which the parents know the school considers. The EFC was known early in the game. The upset is valid for the student - they’re blindsided. But blaming only the schools and not the encouragement of parents who must have been kidding themselves is a mistake. If the schools, govt., wide world crush you - oh well. hopeless and angry. If you see mistakes on both sides, you know you can fix your end and improve.

TrinSF · April 15, 2007, 5:37pm

Thank you for your post, OldinJersey. I agree. While I know that the financial aid process is frustrating and disappointing for families, I have difficulty understanding how people can be so completely blindsided by it.

lskinner · April 15, 2007, 9:21pm

I agree. And there’s obviously a lot of value in parents and children learning and understanding the realities of the financial aid system. And working constructively to find a reasonable compromise between value and cost.

But it’s still legitimate to complain. :)

zoosermom · April 16, 2007, 11:06am

“Virtually every high school senior whom my sons went to school with had a car that the kjids’ parents paid for or helped pay for. My middle class kids were rare exceptions in not having cars.”

In my younger daughter’s school (perhaps because it is quite urban), no kids have their own cars.

“Most middle class and upper class people I know got gift help from their parents in buying homes”

I don’t know any middle class (truly middle class) people who got that help. One of the benefits that I think are truly helpful to middle class, as opposed to poor, kids is the expectation that the child WILL go to college somewhere and that the parents are preparing and gathering information for years to make that happen. I don’t think the preparation can be overestimated because if you know the right questions to ask, it’s much easier to find workable answers. In many schools, guidance or college counsellors are seen as a luxury but I respectfully submit that a top-notch college preparation program starting in 9th grade can be priceless in increasing college admission rates. My younger daughter’s school (urban, poor, predominantly African American, overcrowded, the whole deal) has a comprehensive program that starts in 9th grade and includes mandatory test prep (using grants that the principal busted her butt to get) and course selection. They have a mega-college office that puts out an incredible amount of information on admissions, testing, selection, money, everything you could want to know if you knew nothing about the admission process starting in 9th grade. The rate of college attendance is about twice most high schools here with similar demographics and I attribute that to the programs in place. Really, I attribute it to the principal and her team because she has made getting her kids to college her life’s work. So for me, the bottom line is that money is important, but with the right information and frame of mind, the lack of money can be dealt with.

zoosermom · April 16, 2007, 11:23am

"At the other end, there are CC posters who talk about how the “middle class” is getting shafted, but who also admit to having family incomes above 200K. These people are, in most economic definitions, rich, and do not represent at all the median of income or “the middle class”. OTOH, like my children, they are socially middle class. "

We’re the other side. We make around 200k. Hubby is a garbageman who works a second job and has for years, I’m an admin who works tons of overtime. We live in NYC. No college on either side and hubby’s mother immigrated from Italy, had a fourth grade education and was functionally illiterate. By no stretch of the imagination are we “rich” or even “upper class.” We just work very, very hard to educate our kids and provide them with opportunities. We ask for nothing from anyone, don’t whine that we qualified for no need-based money but are blown away and awe struck that Zoosergirl is going to a nice private college in the fall with enough merit money that we can afford to pay the rest out of income (she will have to continue working to contribute a portion). This happens to be the college that someone we know told her not to apply to because “people like you” don’t go there. Well now our kid does. We visited the school last week and my big, coarse, unrefined husband was standing in a corner of the library crying because he (and I) couldn’t believe that our child could go to such a place! We are both humbled and grateful that our hardwork will enable ZG to do better than we have. Of course, Zoosersister is coming along and we have no idea what will happen with her, but we are grateful.

Northstarmom · April 16, 2007, 11:26am

Zoosermom,
I am so happy to hear about your D’s college experiences. Best of luck, too, to Zoosersister.
I wish that you’d post a separate thread on one of the Parents’ Forums because i think that your family’s experiences would inspire many people.

zoosermom · April 16, 2007, 11:45am

Thank you Northstarmom! Not to project too far, but I think I’ve got to get started preparing for ZS and getting informed sooner rather than later. She is in a whole different situation than her sister and I’m completely uninformed about what is realistic for someone who is as gifted (and weird) as she and I have no idea how the financial aid process works for siblings. The two girls and their educational situations are so different that they might as well be unrelated (one an average kid with icky test scores and a great passion who attended a private school, and a superstar with great test scores who attends an inner city public school, albeit one with a super college office.) New experience for me all around, but I’ll do the reading, ask the questions and God willing, ZS will end up with a happy outcome on the academic and financial level, as well.

TrinSF · April 16, 2007, 5:52pm

zoosermom: Thank you for writing about it! Congratulations!

I know about the other side too, via my partner. His family owns their own home and has a vacation home and have far more income than my parents ever did, but they are solidly “blue collar”. They use the phrase “white collar” as an insult, and are suspicious of anyone who has gone to college. Because of that, my partner never considered going to college – no one in his family had that he knew of, and no one ever talked about him doing it. He’s very successful as a software engineer, but is entirely self-taught, with no college courses at all. His family thinks he’s very strange, because they all work in construction, as mechanics. His father was a shop steward for a newspaper, for much of his life.

So oddly enough, while his parents had more money than mine did, mine had an expectation of college, so I had the “middle class” advantage that he didn’t.

ZingBat1 · April 16, 2007, 10:46pm

We’re in the same boat. We should have had our kid run track or something else instead of push the books. He’s within fingers of the top and only gets merit scholarships relative to 1/2 the cost of LAC. No need based. While others we have heard with strong feet or hands got full scholarships. Go figure. They also drive nicer car and live in better kept houses. Live and Learn.

Irishmomof2 · April 17, 2007, 10:48am

We are still waiting for one financial aid packet, but what surprised me is that with a couple of outliers, all of the schools D applied to ended up costing within $800 of each other, regardless of what the “sticker price” for tuition/room & board says.

I suppose our family would technically be lower middle class - we own our house, but it eats up just over 30% of our income, and we have very little in savings, because every time we start accumulating money, something happens that empties the savings account out again - car needs something done, medical expenses (we spent $320 on medical stuff just in the past 2 weeks because everyone in our house got pink-eye plus something else - for me and younger D, it was strep throat, for my husband, it was an upper respiratory infection, for older D it was an ear infection), something in the house needs to be fixed, one of the D’s needs money for something at school (I had to pay for AP tests 2 weeks ago). So we have decent if not great jobs, but we are almost living hand to mouth moneywise, even without spending money on credit card debt or car payments.

My D worked hard in school and got some nice merit scholarships, which eased the burden somewhat. Our EFC was less than $10,000, but all of the schools are coming in at between $12-$13,000 (with a couple of exceptions which are $14,000 and $21,000). I’m not yet sure where this money is going to come from. We’ve never tapped any of the equity in our house, so that might be a source.

We are also at a slightly different place in our lives than most of my D’s peers - I was a teenager when I had my D, so we haven’t been working for 30+ years, and our incomes reflect that.

I’m really excited for my daughter, but I am scared of the debt we’re going to incur sending her to college.

debbym · April 17, 2007, 3:50pm

Well the last colleges pkg. came in today. Another disappointment. Looks like she will be going to the state college(thank God we applied to one). My take on this is if you are a middle class family with under 70,000 inearnings and no big savings account these schools will offer you a Parent Plus loan as part of your pkg. All the private schools my daughter applied to loaded her up[ on loans and work study, and suggested parent plus loans for the 12000 -16000 a year that was over the efc of about 5000. It is a bitter lesson to us all. Her stats by the way are above average.(number 4 in the class/ 3.8 average etc) These schools have no intention of having working class famalies in their ranks unless like one person that got a full ride to Providence poted they are asian or add some obvious much needed divesity to their campus. In the end my D will get a college education but I feel like a loser not being able to give her the opportunity to attend a private college or university. Oh wait thats right we could if both her and us took out about 20000 a year in loans.

Northstarmom · April 25, 2007, 10:24am

debbym,
Did you reseach the college’s financial aid before your D applied? I don’t know how long you’ve been on CC, but it has repeatedly been advised here that if finances are important, carefully research colleges’ financial aid policies before applying. That way, your student can avoid colleges that don’t promise to meet 100% of students’ financial need, and that have aid packages that are overwhelmingly loans.

This may be too late for you, but in time for others who haven’t yet applied to colleges. In addition to reading carefully colleges’ financial aid info on their web sites, also Google or check the CC thread (you can find it through the search function) that lists college’s common data sets. For $15, one also can access U.S. News Premium College web site and get that info for virtually all colleges.

Doing so early in the college app process saves a lot of grief and disappointment because you can avoid applying to colleges where you’re not likely to get the aid that would make the college affordable for you.

Most people go to public universities, and they certainly aren’t losers nor are their parents losers because their kids are going to public institutions. I know many very well off families whose kids did not go to private universities because of the finances, and because the parents and kids thought the undergraduate educations were not worth the price difference. These included colllege professors families as well as other professionals’ families including doctors and lawyers.

Meanwhile, if for some reason, your D isn’t happy with the public university that accepted her, she could take a gap year, do something productive like work a fulltime job or do fulltime volunteer work, and then reapply to some schools – public and private – that are likely to give her the aid that she needs, and where she would enjoy attending.

If she did a gap year volunteering (check out Americorps, well respected, gives a weekly stipend of about $200 a week, plus gives about $4,700 at year’s completion that one can use for college), that would help her get merit that’s linked to volunteering. Google to find colleges participating in the Bonner Scholarship (may be “Scholars”) program, which provides generous need-based aid for students with strong volunteer experiences. I believe about 20 private colleges participate in that program.

mimiantoinette · April 25, 2007, 9:17pm

I come from Germany where everyone gets a free University education that is just as good (some might argue better) as all US Schools.
All you have to pay is a 300 Euro as a administrative fee and your normal living costs. The government covers all the other costs.
It’s certainly hard for me to look at all the costs I will have in the US as a College student.

simba · April 25, 2007, 9:20pm

“It’s certainly hard for me to look at all the costs I will have in the US as a College student.”

The choice is YOURS.

pippopdew · April 25, 2007, 10:54pm

Remember that private schools are buisnesses like Nike or Microsoft. THey are there to make money and will charge very high prices if that is what is nessacary. Poor students take up much more of the financial aid than privileged students so the option of a private school is much more restricted for poor students. It’s not right or wrong, it’s just the way it is. If every student could go to Harvard, it wouldn’t make it as special for the few students who do.

But in the end just remember, anything is possible.

hallio · April 25, 2007, 11:32pm

I know how you feel! I was completely in love with U. of Puget Sound, a school I was positive I wanted to attend. I am a good student, probably a higher level applicant for Puget Sound. And they expected me to pay more than twice my EFC! Even after I wrote a big letter and everything, they wouldn’t offer us any more, and I still don’t know how that’s possible… This is a school well known for giving great financial aid… So now I’m bitter.

Mombot · April 26, 2007, 12:15am

I’m in with the group that says that along with the whole hyping and branding of higher ed there comes an unrealistic expectation on the part of hardworking smart middle and upper middle income students.

Back when dinosaurs roamed the earth, before the days of the US News rankings, it was considered a coup and a privilege to attend one’s flagship state university. My Econ professor, who was in charge of one of those much-maligned 300 student lectures, performed a simple and illuminating exercise with us once. I STILL remember it–who says big lectures are useless, right? Anyway, Ed Whitelaw if you are still out there you rock…so he lectured on income distribution and he had the class mark down what quintile they thought they grew up in…and then he put the income quintiles on the overhead and we all quickly saw that in spite of the fact that we thought of ourselves as middle class the majority of the class was in the top 20% income wise and the remainder in the next quintile, with a smattering below that. And THAT was at the high water mark of financial aid before Reagan gutted it.

The point, if there ever was one, is that back in the day top achieving and upper middle class families were more than content with the state schools–something has changed since then, perhaps more anxiety about not just going to college being enough, but going to the “right” college giving their kids an edge.

Private school is not an entitlement and never has been, and those who whine because they can’t afford private universities need to just get a grip. The vast majority of the comfortable middle and upper middle were educated at state schools. Nobody NEEDS to go to Harvard to succeed.

southpasdena · April 26, 2007, 1:02am

I must say i am jealous of the sons and daughters represented by the parents posting in this thread. I am annoyed when i see students complaining about getting the shaft. In every state, there is an option for every student, rich or poor. I left with no savings and i can easily say i could on a part time salary easily afford a cal state - this includes tuition, living expenses, books, etc. There should be no complaining. However, i am at a UC and will be graduatingwith no help with a few thousand or less in debt. If i can do it, and my mother could do it before me, anyone can do it. I am sorry if some feel they should not or do not need to work. You make do with your situation.

MLEVINE07 · April 26, 2007, 7:03am

I think the problem with the middle class is that many parents who are middle class feel they can’t afford to pay for college. Middle class students don’t get that much aid, and then are left to fend for themselves. Who’s better off when they get out? The poor student with 40K in loans, or the middle class student with 80k?

I know that for me, I was lower-middle and it turns out my instate school (UMASS Amh) cost just $5,000 less then my first choice (Bard). I’m going to go to Bard despite that my parents will only pay that $5,000, and then take out the loans I need to. It sucks, but whatever.

Middle-Class Gets a Raw Deal

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