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<p>To determine whether someone is a good study partner, one can usually figure out how well s/he is doing in college. Predictors like high school GPA, SAT scores, etc. become rather irrelevant once performance in college is observed.</p>
<p>Ya’ll also left out E. Drinking buddy.</p>
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<p>Well I guess it’s weakened for every single student, since each one will have credentials others don’t have. The perfect SAT/GPA kid could be blown out of the water by the kid who wrote a novel but didn’t score as highly, or the kid who started a successful business but only got a 3.5 in HS or, as we’ve discussed, brings some interesting viewpoint to the table or excels in a sport.</p>
<p>The idea that anyone believes that only test scores and GPA measure one’s ability to succeed in college and life is really sad. And misguided. And frankly, simply wrong.</p>
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<p>Exactly. Once you’re in college what you did in high school is nothing. If you can’t ID a study partner by talking with that person or working with them in college, then you are probably lousy at picking study partners.</p>
<p>“It’s so unjust that seats at top schools go to people who think this way instead of to folks who really deserve to be there.”</p>
<p>Glad to see you are not being judgmental. </p>
<p>So because I was concerned about my grades when I chose study partners, I don’t deserve to be there? Different priorities I guess.</p>
<p>No, because you were concerned about your study partner’s HIGH SCHOOL grades.</p>
<p>No, if you think SAT scores are a better way to judge the grade-boosting power of a classmate than his ACTUAL PERFORMANCE, then you don’t deserve to be there. My post really wasn’t opaque.</p>
<p>“So because I was concerned about my grades when I chose study partners, I don’t deserve to be there? Different priorities I guess.”</p>
<p>Because you were trying to second-guess whether those classmates “belonged there” or had “stolen” a spot that should have gone to someone else. And make no mistake, you weren’t doing it for potential white study partners - only those who looked different. That’s what is offensive. It also shows that whatever school you went to, you didn’t believe in the adcoms’ abilities to select a worthy incoming class - which begs the question why you’d want to be there if you don’t trust how the adcoms put it all together.</p>
<p>Look, the basic, decent human assumption is that everyone who is here deserves to be here, and you treat them that way until or unless you have evidence to the contrary. What you’re doing is convicting before the crime. Rather like the people who “can’t believe” that Obama was smart enough to go to Harvard Law School, be editor of the review, etc. </p>
<p>Do you think the attitude of trying to double-check the credentials of your classmates to see whether they “really” belong is the kind of the attitude that the employers that you salivate over are going to be impressed by? Because in the real world, that kind of attitude gets sussed out pretty quickly – and just as quickly passed over. No one has any time for any nonsense like that. Will you do the same with your entering class of baby analysts or whatever else your entry level job is – double-check and make sure no one got in who shouldn’t have?</p>
<p>PizzaGril.</p>
<p>AA perpetuates the negative stigma against URMs becuase there is a reason to think that, in expected value (thanks heaven one is still free to do probabilistic calculations in this country) the qualifications of some groups at some educational institution are likely be lower than those of other groups.</p>
<p>Like it or not, by continuing AA, our policies foster the perpetuation of the stigmatization.</p>
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<p>Maybe you do not like that people think like that, but the article “The Affirmative Action Stigma of Incompetence: Effects of Performance Information Ambiguity” by
Madeline E. Heilman, Caryn J. Block and Peter Stathatos, argues that because of AA may people think like that.</p>
<p>“No, because you were concerned about your study partner’s HIGH SCHOOL grades.”</p>
<p>“No, if you think SAT scores are a better way to judge the grade-boosting power of a classmate than his ACTUAL PERFORMANCE, then you don’t deserve to be there. My post really wasn’t opaque.”</p>
<p>Wait a minute. Didn’t all of you in college subject your potential study partners to a multi-hour interrogation with official high school transcripts and SAT scores required? “Jim why on earth did you end up with that A- in History. I know your father passed away but we can’t let that slide”. /Sarcasm</p>
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<p>Those who looked different? Really? Logic suggests that a white student should first pick international students and then Asian-Americans if they want the odds-on favorites of best study partners.</p>
<p>“Because in the real world, that kind of attitude gets sussed out pretty quickly – and just as quickly passed over. No one has any time for any nonsense like that. Will you do the same with your entering class of baby analysts or whatever else your entry level job is – double-check and make sure no one got in who shouldn’t have?”</p>
<p>I can see that you are rather belligerent, but are you usually this wrong as well?</p>
<p>I am a mid-40s adult who happens to have the day off because the stock markets are closed today. The will be closed tomorrow so I might continue on here. If I chose to, I could retire today, so I don’t think my outlook has hurt me all that much.</p>
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<p>I’m sorry…you think it’s because of AA that people think test scores and GPA measure one’s ability to succeed? I think not.</p>
<p>Wow, I cannot believe the tempest in a teacup that erupted when I shared my definition of top tier of universities. </p>
<p>There is no universally acknowledged definition for what constitutes the top tier in universities, any more than there is a universally acknowledged definition for what constitutes the most handsome men or most beautiful women. </p>
<p>In fact, all the rancor in this ENTIRE thread is just a tempest in an American teacup. Our country is continually watering down its achievement standards so every child (regardless of race, gender) who competes in athletics, academics, whatever gets a shiny gold trophy for participation and attendance.</p>
<p>The trolls on this board who jump all over people with their overt incivility have proposed ZERO constructive ideas to how to fix the problems in our country. They only advocate the status quo. I have suggested some steps our country can take to improve the achievement of URMs in K-12 so that they will be prepared for the most competitive universities, and all I get is this shallow fixation on definitions of top tier. </p>
<p>I don’t know if it’s apparent to you that I am not posting my comments from the U.S. I am working and living abroad and have resided in different countries in Europe & Asia. Viewed from abroad, this American intellectual dishonesty about who is ready to compete in the top universities defies the belief of my int’l colleagues, whose countries are kicking America’s butt in educational performance. In case you have not noticed, it’s not just the factory jobs that have moved to other countries, it’s the white collar jobs too.</p>
<p>When I read comments here like “just because a kid can’t read or write or do math well doesn’t mean he doesn’t belong in a class with gifted students”, I know America is doomed…</p>
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<p>Yes, but why would those students want to study with ME?</p>
<p>I studied a lot in college, but it was never with random people I thought might be smarter than I was. It was always with friends I felt comfortable burning the midnight oil with. If I had needed to LEARN something from my study partner, I would have talked to the TA.</p>
<p>Notyourbusiness,</p>
<p>Do you think the same stigmatization happens to white students who attend universities with many top asian students? I suspect not nearly to the same extent between white and AA. Any stigmatization problem I think can be at least be partially overcome by AA programs that continue past admissions and work to ensure inclusion in places other than the class room.</p>
<p>GMT, just an aside…Interesting that you speak of academic dishonesty. It comes in all forms. Maybe we in the U.S. overstate the quality of our education system, but there is no question that some countries are gaming the college admissions process to get more and more of their kids into our universities. (And by gaming I mean presenting false credentials.) One of my friends, a humanities professor at our state flagship, complains often about the growing number of international students who come from a large country that shall remain nameless. She claims that many of them are ill-prepared for the work in every possible way–the writing, the reasoning, and the contextual knowledge that would allow them to succeed. Teaching even lower-level classes has become increasingly challenging and frustrating as a result.</p>
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<p>A- can’t recall reading this.</p>
<p>B- if America is doomed why do so many want to go to college here, lax standards and AA and all? /sarcasm</p>
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<p>Speaking of gaming the system–THIS. As I have said before, every single thing that an upper-middle-class family (white, Asian, or other) can do to ensure their child’s success sets up a false comparison against a kid who can’t afford the money or time to take the SAT/ACT more than once. Superscore? Really? If we want a fair comparison, maybe we should only allow students to take each test one time. Then let’s see how wide the gap is. I am guessing it would be much smaller.</p>
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<p>Well, the mechanis is the same (the probabilities mechanism that PoetGirl wants to prevent people to compute/discuss/think about).</p>
<p>It seems that in many institution it is indeed the case that the average Asian student has higher academic qualifications than the average White student. Therefore, absent other information, when an observer sees an Asian and a White from that university, the observer will be justified in thinking that it is more likely that the Asian student is more qualified than the White student.</p>
<p>If admissions were color-blind, than the observer would have no reason to infer the there were academic differences between the two.</p>