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<p>Yes. thank you for clarifying.</p>
<p>Also, in my post, understand that by “differently” I truly mean differently, not less. Just to be clear.</p>
<p>carry on.</p>
<p><a href=“You%20really%20can’t%20do%20a%20sustained%20research%20internship%20if%20your%20family%20isn’t%20well-off%20and%20the%20%22local%22%20university%20is%20a%2030%20minute%20drive%20away,%20for%20example.”>quote</a>
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I agree with you, though in fact this kid did: <a href=“A Science Prodigy in an Unlikely Place - The New York Times”>A Science Prodigy in an Unlikely Place - The New York Times;
<p>All this reminds me of my district’s testing for the gifted program - my younger son just fell short on all 4 tests, but got in via the 5th route of a teacher recommendation designed to catch any kids who fell through the cracks. The next year we were trying to figure out some issues and he ended up getting a full scale IQ test which showed that yes indeed all those school tests were worth nothing. Thank heavens for holistic admissions!</p>
<p>Multiple reads of an application enable people who understand the community to judge a kid and see if in his context he’s excelling even if he comes up a little short on the supposedly objective methods.</p>
<p>Oh and the idea that a 700 is a mediocre score is laughable. Harvard has said anyone scoring 650 or plus is capable of doing very well there.</p>
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<p>It’s hard for me to imagine any adult with any real-world experience actually thinking that boy, the 800’s group over here and the 750’s group over there and the 700’s over there and the 650’s are all just picking up their garbage. It’s completely asinine to think that these are meaningful differences once you get outside of the context of applying to college. So many other factors trump ability to take standardized tests. The only reason these colleges have such high average SAT scores is that they have the luxury of cherry-picking. Obviously they don’t think they are All That, otherwise they could easily staff their classes by SAT scores. Harvard has said the above, MITChris and other adcoms have said variations of the same - but sadly, there are very in-the-box people who think that there are major differences in “qualifications”, and that’s why URM’s having lower average SAT scores Upsets Them So Because It’s Not Fair. Past a certain band, you can’t take it seriously.</p>
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<p>The great thing about the culture is … hey, better to be practicing math and science than roaming the streets, and the work ethic is really something to be applauded and admired. The bad thing is the johnny-one-note that it engenders, and the win-lose mentality (someone has to win at someone else’s expense - rising tide doesn’t lift all boats).</p>
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<p>On the other hand, there are people (Asian and otherwise) who do well on the SAT without spending their whole lives preparing for it.</p>
<p>It always seemed to me that there was a baseline of test-specific preparation that could significantly improve someone’s score if s/he did not already know the needed test-taking techniques, but spending one’s whole life on test-preparation beyond the baseline had a rather poor return on time investment, compared to doing better on regular school work, sports and extracurriculars, reading for fun, or just having a life outside of “college prep activity”. It also seemed likely that some students spent a lot of time studying for the SAT but did not study the high-value test-taking techniques (i.e. they got relatively little gain for a lot of studying).</p>
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<p>I agree. One could also redirect preparation time towards the SAT subject exams and Advanced Placement exams.</p>
<p>For all the students and parents out there, Harvard dean of admission stated in NYTimes several back, “We have found that the best predictors at Harvard are Advanced Placement tests and International Baccalaureate Exams, closely followed by the College Board subject tests. High school grades are next in predictive power, followed by the SAT and ACT. The writing tests of the SAT and ACT have predictive power similar to the subject tests.” I would make similar conclusion from my teaching experiences. </p>
<p>Please do not waste your time over-preparing SAT tests.</p>
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<p>Assuming that the student has the baseline test-taking techniques, the SAT-S and AP tests should not require enormous amounts of studying (no more than a final exam in the corresponding high school course) if the corresponding high school course covered the material in those tests and the student did well in the course.</p>
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<p>This is very interesting.</p>
<p>Re: #1387</p>
<p>Other studies noted the same thing, that subject-based tests (AP and SAT-S tests) and high school grades predicted college grades better than the SAT-R test.</p>
<p>Really, that is not surprising. The subject-based tests are basically like standardized final exams of high school and (for non-“lite” AP tests) college freshman courses. Since high school grades have always been acknowledged as better predictors of college grades than the SAT-R, the standardized subject-based tests measure a similar thing, but without the noise of varying levels of high school course rigor and grade inflation. However, they lose the capability of longer term evaluation that can be done with assignments and projects in a course, as opposed to just one final exam for the whole grade.</p>
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<p>If you have a good score on the SAT, then it’s also unlikely you are winning academic awards. In general, academic awards are difficult to get.</p>
<p>@PCHOPE-- Where did I ever say that I disagreed? I never ever said I disagreed… But I also don’t want my daughter and those that look like her(or me for that matter) to be put down because we don’t have the luxury of a neighborhood hagwon. With all of my daughters hard work and dedication to her studies and such, should she be put down b/c she doesn’t score a perfect 2400? </p>
<p>Its funny because I met a woman by pure happenstance this past weekend… she recently moved to New Haven. And was actually an adcom for an ivy, actually graduated from the ivy and I, of course jumped at the chance to ask about the admissions process. She says that SAT scores are the last on the list of things that they look at when making their decisions. One of the important things is the essay and they find that the kids with the higher SAT scores tend to fall short on their essays. Why? She says she isn’t sure but an essay is what truly gives a clear picture of who the student is. Where they have been in life, what they have learned… their ideas, aspirations, their true passion. Adcoms are human and want to connect to a human. Not to a number on a piece of paper!</p>
<p>Oddly enough, I came across a young man, a few weeks back who is interning @ DD14’s high school. He is also ivy league educated. While in college, he was a private SAT tutor and charged exhorbatant amounts for his services which families payed him without the blink of an eye. He says it dawned on him that these children were able to outscore others by huge numbers d/t their parents abilility to write a fat check. And the unfairness of it all. And how unfair life was for those who didn’t have those kinds of resource OR the wherewithall to know that the SAT test matters.</p>
<p>So for what it is worth… I am not upset or judging anyone. Just stating facts. As I have said in past posts, life is not fair and my dd will have to work ten times harder than her counterparts b/c of the stigma that preceeds her. She realizes this and makes no excuses! No need to cry about it. Its just the way our society is.</p>
<p>So when and IF dd14 makes it into the school of her dreams, others shouldn’t cry foul/get *<strong><em>y b/c of the color of her skin by what they percieve as AA when in fact she has put in the work to, as we say, run with the big dogs!!! Just like she won’t get *</em></strong>y when many make it in because of the resources that they have a their finger tips.</p>
<p>PCH- As I recall, that’s “the best predictor” of grades. Not how a kid moves through an Ivy, is empowered, enhances critical reasoning, deepens his education and moves forward into life.</p>
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<p>This is the problem with “holistic admissions”. Too many admissions officers think they can see into someone’s soul after perusing an application for 20 minutes. The book “Thinking Fast and Slow”, which I mentioned before, documents that holistic judgements in general do not predict as well as statistical models.</p>
<p>A reader can form a “clear picture” of someone from reading his essay, but how does she know that picture is correct?</p>
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<p>That is the same dean who joined the now defrocked dean of MIT to claim that students should recapture their summers and stop participating in the “award” and AP rat race. </p>
<p>As noble (and correct) as the idea the problem is that the same people who decide the admission outcomes do continue to reward the students who just do the … opposite. The positions of Fitzsimmons and Marilee was highly hypocritical and misleading as both MIT and Harvard were in a position to send clear messages by restricting the number of AP listed on the application and drastically reduce the credits given for AP/IB.</p>
<p>The reality is that at the same time they made the declaration, MIT INCREASED the number of lines to list awards and standardized tests. </p>
<p>As far as the predictive power of the AP/IB etc, the position above is contradictory to a number of professors at … Harvard who have disputed the validity of the AP. In addition, considering the average SAT at Harvard and its graduation rates, one has to wonder how the school can track the various predictors with accuracy. Does H intimate that a 2200 student does not do as well as a 2350 and that a student with 11 APs does better than one with 5? </p>
<p>Short of a controlled study, declarations like the one quoted have to be taken with a truckload of salt.</p>
<p>Predict what?</p>
<p>Phil- predict grades. The article can be googled.</p>
<p>Bel, it doesn’t start with them assuming they can read into your soul. For heaven’s sake, kids are creating a *college app. * That’s where the problem originates. It should be a “best shot,” carefully crafted, cohesive and coherent self-presentation. </p>
<p>NH Mom, the risk is not that your daughter or anyone’s child, will be held back because she did not reach 2400 or close. The risk is that any kid’s “rest of the story” won’t place him among finalists. As an example, Brown shows (P used to, but I haven’t found it lately) the number of vals and 800’s accepted/rejected.</p>
<p>What I have been wanting to say is what your Ivy contact told you. I do feel the statement, “last thing they look at” is not literal, it’s an off-hand value statement. (After all, scores come up on one of the early pages in the app package- and can appear on a front page cover sheet or any summary or notes.) Go back to the MITChris quotes- once a kid is clearly in-range, the scores matter less than the other aspects of self-presentation.</p>
<p>Yes, kids screw up their essays. It’s a college-admit-essay, not a high school exercise meant to flex their writing skills. It’s read by a stranger/adcom who has one shot to know you: your app package. Its not like in hs, where the teacher knows you, can fill in the blanks. (Oh, I know Johnny is a nice kid and doesn’t really torment his brother.") So, what you choose to write, whether or not you can self-edit, how you develop or ramble, etc, etc, etc, is a mark of your savvy, perspective and judgment. And more. ECs often show similar issues.</p>
<p>And then you get to that point Pizza Girl brought up earlier- kids who can’t answer the “Why Us?” or why I think I want that major. </p>
<p>Kids shouldn’t obsess, but they should be completely aware that holistic is not about a top-down admit policy based on stats.</p>
<p>Fitz’s QandA at the Choice</p>
<p>[Guidance</a> Office: Answers From Harvard’s Dean, Part 2 - NYTimes.com](<a href=“http://thechoice.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/09/11/harvarddean-part2/]Guidance”>Guidance Office: Answers From Harvard's Dean, Part 2 - The New York Times)</p>
<p>I think these admission consulting firms are probably more useful for essays than for SAT prep. I’m not saying they write the essays (though there probably is some corruption at some places), but they can tell you what kind of essay (or the tone of the essay) will resonate with adcoms. </p>
<p>As a result, I think smart middle class kids are more hurt by the essay/interview than from other parts.</p>
<p>Actually, I think a savvy adult is a better ROI than a profesional counselor. </p>
<p>Smart middle class kids are not the only ones affected. It’s any kid who assumes that his successes speak for themselves. -That his high school BMOC status (however it manifests) makes him an ovbious choice. That adcoms can’t help but see what he and his peers, teachers and family see.</p>