<p>Steve Jobs, perhaps the person who has changed my world the most, was only enrolled in college for six months. I do not think he had any formal engineering classes.</p>
<p>It seems I may be in the minority here, but I don’t think the elite colleges have a “fix” on changing the world. Greatness comes from the relentless passion one possesses.</p>
<p>“The real question … Why are the completion rates so low for all races?”</p>
<p>This has been a topic of conversation in our house for some time. Professors don’t like to see students fail, so each failure is examined. The list of reasons is extensive … and highly specific to the particular student. I really don’t think there’s a “one size fits all” answer to this “real question.” Sorry.</p>
<p>Interesting working paper on the question: <a href=“http://digitalcommons.ilr.cornell.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1137&context=workingpapers&sei-redir=1&referer=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2Furl%3Fsa%3Dt%26rct%3Dj%26q%3Dsat%2520score%2520correlation%2520with%2520stem%2520degree%26source%3Dweb%26cd%3D1%26ved%3D0CDAQFjAA%26url%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fdigitalcommons.ilr.cornell.edu%252Fcgi%252Fviewcontent.cgi%253Farticle%253D1137%2526context%253Dworkingpapers%26ei%3DKqmaUNHXGLGu0AGU3oGwDA%26usg%3DAFQjCNFJuxf6oF8ySfJJ9gHNLExaGAwK3Q#search=“sat%20score%20correlation%20stem%20degree”[/url]”>http://digitalcommons.ilr.cornell.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1137&context=workingpapers&sei-redir=1&referer=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2Furl%3Fsa%3Dt%26rct%3Dj%26q%3Dsat%2520score%2520correlation%2520with%2520stem%2520degree%26source%3Dweb%26cd%3D1%26ved%3D0CDAQFjAA%26url%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fdigitalcommons.ilr.cornell.edu%252Fcgi%252Fviewcontent.cgi%253Farticle%253D1137%2526context%253Dworkingpapers%26ei%3DKqmaUNHXGLGu0AGU3oGwDA%26usg%3DAFQjCNFJuxf6oF8ySfJJ9gHNLExaGAwK3Q#search=“sat%20score%20correlation%20stem%20degree”</a></p>
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<p>Anecdotal…</p>
<p>I know of two at Cornell CoE. Both scored over 1300 (1440 and 1350) on the SAT. One transferred out because of the amount of studying required was just too much. The other remains in CoE working hard and doing well. </p>
<p>Here one student did not want to put up with the demands of the major, not because the material could not be understood.</p>
<p>Right^. You have to account for being human.</p>
<p>I have long suspected one crucial difference in whether some kids stick with STEM goes back the the SES issue, with repect to the quality of the specific high schools and the breadth they can offer. What I’m going to say would still need to be further broken down (ie, studied) to get any sort of an analysis; eg, you’d have to break down for different categories of SES status and the hs those kids happen to attend:</p>
<p>Nearly all hs offer, eg, AP calc. Where there is a harsh limit, the other APs seem to be one English, one history, and bio. In contrast, many high SES high schools, we know, are pushing upwards of 20+ offerings. </p>
<p>That means, at my old hs, outside DC (more heterogeneous than in my day, but trust me, high SES,) kids are exposed to AP (or even honors) psych, IR and/or govt, econ, art, CS, multiple languages, etc. Other courses can include world affairs, soc/anthro, it goes on. These kids have a better first chance to identify and refine their interests and strengths. </p>
<p>In contrast, the bright kid at a limited hs may do well in math/sci and have that be the limit of his exposure – he sees his successes in that framework- and (don’t you think?) defines his possible future in that direction. Had he had other academic experiences, his initial vision may have been broader. Instead of saying, I do well in math, I’d like to be an engineer, he might say, I do well in aplying economic theory, hmmm. Or the opp to help people through psychlogy interests me.</p>
<p>Now, I wonder how many kids whose choices and exposures were limited, get to the college buffet and, no longer restricted, realize the breadth of their options? Get truly excited about other directions?</p>
<p>A bright kid from a limited high school may not have had the opportunity to take a “real” AP course, that is, he may not have had a suitable teacher. He may have been the brightest student in the class, and thus denied the chance for academic rivalry with peers.</p>
<p>Even though the more affluent high schools may have a greater depth of course offerings, the students may be guided to choose certain courses rather than others. AP Chemistry rather than psychology, for example. There’s only so much time in a high school schedule.</p>
<p>Well, some people have rather a “let them eat cake” about the bright kid at the limited hs that doesn’t offer AP Calculus, etc. Because, after all, that kid didn’t get an 800 on his math SAT and thus can’t ever be expected to do the work at an elite college, too bad so sad. </p>
<p>I don’t know the specifics, but my D’s school (a top LAC) offers some sort of - I don’t want to call it remedial, that’s not the right word - but some kind of summer prep for incoming first-years who have potential who might not have had the kind of hs caliber to support first-class learning. I don’t know, I think giving promising people a hand up is a good thing to aspire to, but it’s clear that some on this thread don’t particularly care if said promising people haven’t already demonstrated near-perfect SAT’s and other such harbingers of smarts.</p>
<p>Peri, point being, we dont have all the answers, just lots of questions.</p>
<p>So, part of my own critical thinking about Duke and other studies is: they don’t go far enough to answer enough questions. Should we look at their findings as absolutes and indictments? I don’t think so.</p>
<p>Also the proof in the quality of an AP can show in the test score, not assumptions that East Nowehere’s AP isn’t “real.” We’ve been talking of kids adcoms see as qualified for an elite.</p>
<p>PG, my D2’s LAC aslo offers that- no dea if the kids who sign up stay in STEM.</p>
<p>I am finding this increasingly depressing. If that SAT average was used to limit entrance into STEM majors, that would mean only maybe 10 percent of girls, and 15 percent of boys would be eligible? </p>
<p>"Nearly all hs offer, eg, AP calc. Where there is a harsh limit, the other APs seem to be one English, one history, and bio. In contrast, many high SES high schools, we know, are pushing upwards of 20+ offerings. "</p>
<p>Our family is considered quite well off, and my husband at least, is considered to have pushed our kids pretty hard academically, but we did not seriously consider sending our kids far outside of our community for school. Not sure what that means, since we grew up in a very different community, where it was not that unusual to travel distances for a special school. One BIG difference was the availability of public transportation. (NYC).</p>
<p>Anyway, when my oldest finished high school, I believe there were 4 AP’s available, some of which you had to be on track to do since 8th grade (AP calc). When my youngest graduated, I think there were 6 available, but again, you had to be on track by eighth grade. Last time I checked, every school in our county (about 10, including public and religious). offered the same number of AP’s</p>
<p>Pizzagirl,</p>
<p>My child’s HS did not offer AP Calc yet my child was able to score 1440 on the SAT(770 M). His acceptance was conditional on the summer program which you speak of. I guess his acceptance was holistic. I can proudly say that he is surviving this tough major. I divulge this information in an effort to hopefully open the eyes of all the naysayers.</p>
<p>I might add he has a close friend who had the best of the best k-12 education. Funny enough my son performs better in the math classes and his friend performs better in the physics classes. It warms my heart that boys work together to help one another.</p>
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<p>Maybe because the instructors go out of their way to try to terrify you with how little you really learned in high school?</p>
<p>My son is an intended STEM major at Brown, working on his first semester. He is a natural at math and physics, who never bothered to study for tests in high school and rarely got less than perfect scores on those tests. He is currently taking (among his 5 classes) two advanced/honors math classes and one advanced/honors physics class at Brown – by advanced/honors, I mean that easier versions of the same courses are available, so these courses tend to appeal to those majoring in the field and who also aced the related AP tests.</p>
<p>It seems that every test has at least one seriously complex question worth 15-20% of the total points which either takes one-third to one-half of the test period to complete or where the approach is so non-obvious (even if you solved all the homework problem sets successfully) that you wish you had a few hours to ponder it. The class average on one recent test was 32/50 points – and I’d guess that 95%+ of the students in those classes got A’s in all their math and science classes in high school, or they wouldn’t be there.</p>
<p>In addition, the instructors won’t tell you what your grade is, what the cut-offs are. The explanation they give is “we wait until the end and make the decision where there is a clear gap between groups.” Remarkably, no one seems to question this approach and the classes still appear to be as full as before.</p>
<p>My guess is that the former high school students regarded “best in many years” will squeak out the A if they continue to work hard; those that were the top 3 in any given year will squeak out the B and those that barely managed a low A in high school will change their intended majors quickly: You need skill, determination, and serious confidence in your abilities to stay in a field that revels in reminding you how much you still don’t know.</p>
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<p>You may be interested in the “College and Career Readiness” statistics in the 2012</p>
<p>[CIVIL</a> RIGHTS DATA COLLECTION](<a href=“http://www2.ed.gov/about/offices/list/ocr/docs/crdc-2012-data-summary.pdf]CIVIL”>http://www2.ed.gov/about/offices/list/ocr/docs/crdc-2012-data-summary.pdf) report, which show how often various math courses are offered at schools serving various populations. I don’t object to looking at a student’s academic record in the context of what his high school offered.</p>
<p>smileygirl, My 2 kids went to a diverse city public school and also were able to do well on the SAT’s (math 780 and 710). Older kid did take BC Calculus (5)and AP Physics(5) and has already graduated in engineering. Younger kid took AP Physics(5) but didn’t want to take calculus so took AP Statistics instead. So, my anecdotal input is that it didn’t even matter that the younger had not taken AP calculus in high school to be able to do well in college. He is a senior in engineering and is on track to graduate summa cum laude (although that could change if he slacks off some his senior year). I guess it kind of anecdotally confirms that study mentioned that kids who do well on the SAT’s seem to have greater persistence with STEM majors.</p>
<p>My son breezed through High School. I have had several conversations concerning the difficulty of the prelims. A student can quickly feel insecure when the mean of an exam is 65. The first year was very difficult but by the second year he has adjusted to this new very difficult and extremely competitive environment. I have no doubt that he will survive and graduate not with a 4.0 but a well respected 3.0.</p>
<p>smileygirl,My older son breezed through both high school and college(UVa). Unlike your son,my younger son had lots of trouble in high school (mostly related to not doing homework or studying-ha ha) but has breezed through college. Go figure. He is not at one of the “elite” schools popular on CC but is at Virginia Tech, which is very respectable in engineering and engineering there is not easy. Good luck to your son!</p>
<p>Sevmom,</p>
<p>Thank you. Good Luck to both of your sons as well.</p>
<p>770 or 780 on math SAT I means that you got 1 wrong. On a 35 question test, I can easily see how someone could get 1 or 2 wrong because of a simple math error or gridding mistake or something. For that reason, I consider this equivalent to an 800. Even Caltech doesn’t distinguish between math SATI scores above 750.
That is why I said once you get to 700 it starts to suggest you actually couldn’t solve one of these very basic problems. What you do with that information is up to you.</p>
<p>And smilegerl’s example shows that even someone in a school which doesn’t have AP calculus can max out the SAT math. </p>
<p>Most of the high performers in my high school were middle class. To give you an idea, most could not afford to go to the elite colleges they got into. Yes, academic performance is proportional somewhat to income, but I suspect once you get to middle class it doesn’t much matter, particularly when you are talking about what it takes to perform well in school and academic competitions. And there is always the association vs. causality thing question, too.</p>
<p>collegealum314,</p>
<p>I know a student currently at HYP with a 1800 SAT. This student is surviving without problems. What would you owe to his/her success. According to you this person would not survive at this elite college.</p>
<p>Stop obsessing over SAT scores. It is just one aspect of an application.</p>
<p>When I said high performers, I wasn’t talking about the SAT. Probably half the class was above 1500/1600. I was talking about performance in class and in academic competitions.</p>
<p>Beliavsky, I believe i asked you this before, but I don’t know if you answered it. I know someone responded. I am asking you, because you seem to be fairly confident that the majority of “intelligence” is inherited, that SAT scores largely reflect “intelligence”, and that race should not be a factor in admissions because it is not an achievement. (I agree with some, but not all of that, more at the extremes then in the middle standard deviations). </p>
<p>But if you are completely correct, isn’t it statistically more likely that if your parent has a math SAT better than 700, you will be “born” able to get a 700 math SAT score, than it is likely to be an African American male in the position to apply to an elite college in the US? I think others have posted on this thread that their student got high scores in 5th grade or with with no studying, or “skated” through high school. If so, (and I could be way off. My math score was no where NEAR 700), why is one an accomplishment, and the other is not? I totally get that there are multiple variable at play, at least I think so, but I hope I am talking statistics right now. </p>
<p>When I think of my own son, I have often worried that he is “doomed”. He was born with good, but not great SAT genes, had a good, but not spectacular socioeconomic environment, yet it was hard for him to make the best of it because he had some pretty major behavior problems for a long time, that I happen to believe he was “born” with. Years ago I posted a thread called something like <a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/716335-32-14-fs-equals-c-geometry.html?highlight=a+s+f+equals+d[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/716335-32-14-fs-equals-c-geometry.html?highlight=a+s+f+equals+d</a>, because he did great on tests but got kicked out of class a lot, and had a lot of missing assignments. He overcame a lot, and got his shot at an engineering program. He is working VERY hard, <a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/1263136-parents-engineering-freshman.html?highlight=parents+of[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/1263136-parents-engineering-freshman.html?highlight=parents+of</a> surely an achievement “for him”, and he asks why is it so much harder for him. What do I say?</p>