<p>Given that SAT-Reasoning-specific preparation (that is of little relevance to actual college work) can influence scores considerably, the “noise” introduced by variations in SAT-Reasoning-specific preparation (or access to such, as it relates to SES differences) probably makes the SAT Reasoning somewhat less reliable than it already is as a predictor of college performance. Indeed, AP scores, then high school grades, then SAT Subject scores, all seem to be better predictors of college performance than SAT Reasoning scores.</p>
<p>DD14 is at a school where most have little clue of the SAT’s importance. Have been raised by teen parents, grown up in poverty, victims of abuse, etc. Then there are the handful that are hard working, smart, and have a clear vision of where they want to go. Many students come to this inner city magnet school from the burbs to take advantage of all this school has to offer. Others are chidren of doctors, lawyers and one young man is the son of a Yale prof. I am sure his dad is able to afford expensive SAT prep classes and other accourtrement of life. My daughter works just as hard if not harder on school work/EC’s, volunteers AND she is self studying for the SAT. Because his dad is a Yale prof, does that mean that he should automatically gain entry into that institution or other ivy? Because my daughter is black and low income should it be assumed that her scores will be low? If she gets admitted and he doesn’t, will you all scream foul play? </p>
<p>Was it fair that I had to fight tooth and nail/BEG for her to take an AP class as a sophomore and told that she will fail… and then this privileged, white, young man, the son of a Yale prof was able to walk right into the same AP class and sit down next to her without the blink of an eye? No one questioned his intellect. Is that fair? Should I have *****ed/moaned and shouted racism? Absolutely not. I am sick and tired of everyone assuming that black/poor = dumb. BTW, they both scored a 5.</p>
<p>So what you are saying is that the record is artificially boosted because of SAT prep and other ones are boosted by “other acoutrements.” I don’t know what these other acoutrements might be, considering you are taking the same classes with the same textbooks, no?</p>
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<p>It sounds like this problem would have been solved with a pretest cut-off to get into the class or grade cut-off in a prerequisite. And that has very little to do with privelege or whiteness, and more to do with matching performance with placement.</p>
<p>@GMT–did you read my post? maybe you should read it again… THIS YOUNG MAN IS IN MY DAUGHTERS CLASS… repeat, HE IS IN MY DAUGHTERS CLASS…his father is a Yale prof, he lives in an amazing/mouth dropping home in the Yale U district. I think its safe to assume that he comes from a certain socioeconomic status. I doubt they are receiving food stamps!</p>
<p>I am not assuming anything. I am going by what you and others have stated here on this thread over the past few days… </p>
<p>I said IF she gets in and he doesn’t… will you scream FOUL PLAY???</p>
<p>@ college-- dd14 had all A+'s the whole(freshman) year… actually had honors with distinction… so that is the reason for pushing for the AP in her soph year. I am sure this young man had the same. And no, there are no pre tests… I have not heard of such a thing… the point I was making was that they both were on equal footing… and she has to beg to get into the class… whereas he, just waltzed right on in… no problem… but no need to be disgruntled… life isn’t fair and she realizes that she will always have to work harder to get where she needs to go… </p>
<p>And this young man summers in Europe/spends Christmas skiing in Aspen… I think this means he has a pretty nice life.</p>
<p>Ironically, it sounds like you would prefer that admission to things would be <em>less</em> holistic and more based on metrics or at least past performance.</p>
<p>The more license people in authority have to make decisions subjectively, the more people with talent are liable to be screwed.</p>
<p>Holistic admissions (both in college or for whatever program/class/job you are looking for) is like living under a monarchy. It can be more effective than a democratic republic when the monarch is benevolent and wise. When they are not, however, there are no checks and balances. </p>
<p>Some food for thought: Mini, a prof who is most certainly on the left end of the spectrum in terms of social justice, has on more than one occasion said the admissions staff at Harvard should be publically fired.</p>
<p>@167
"I said IF she gets in and he doesn’t… will you scream FOUL PLAY??? "</p>
<p>No, because it is just one data point and it may just be the randomness of the admission process. </p>
<p>However, if a statistically significant number of applicants who have relatively lower academic qualifications gets in while a statistically significant number of aplications who have relatively higher academic qualification does not get in… then people may be more willing to “scream” as you suggested.</p>
<p>Newhavenmom-thanks for insight into the AP class and how hard it is within your DD’s school. </p>
<p>This is an interesting overall post. I might order the book. I had a similar experience at Rice. I was qualified on paper to attend with GPA, etc. What I wasn’t prepared for was the level of academics my peers had received in high school vs my small rural school. I was in a physics class freshman year when highest math I had in HS was trigonometry… My major was engineering and was taking an extremely hard schedule for freshman year. Second semester, I took general education classes in a variety of areas and did much better. Graduated in four years, but my first semester still haunts me.</p>
<p>After that experience, I have pushed my kids to take the most rigorous courses possible. My DS had AAT as freshman and DD as sophomore. My DD has only taken honors and AP classes except for the required regular class such as Health and Fine arts. Both were ready for any college they wanted to attend.</p>
<p>DS is college sophomore and has a great GPA. He is struggling this semester, but that is primarily due to him being sick the week prior to mid terms. He loves college and has a ton of options. Each semester we review classes and professors. He will have option to graduate within 3 years due to AP credits, however he wants 4 years. I am starting to agree so that he can double major and continue to rake a variety of classes.</p>
<p>DD is a senior in HS. She has applied to a few Ivys and top liberal and national universities. She is confident she can go anywhere. Fortunately she has attended several flyin trips and able to gauge for herself. She sat in a few classes at Harvey Mudd in physics and math and was able to follow along with the professors. She also talked to several peers attending and realized that many times she was further along in her AP classes than others. She came back from those trips feeling confident.</p>
<p>After my “mismatched” college experience, I have intentionally made sure my children would not have similar a similar experience. This comes from HS rigor as well as class selection in college.</p>
<p>The paper is not published yet. But regardless of whether you agree with the paper’s conclusions, the admissions stats of the 1536 students who agreed to participate in the study come from the admissions office of Duke University. </p>
<p>Here is how the Duke AO’s rated their enrolled students as applicants:</p>
<p>Standardized Test Scores
White<em>Black</em>Hispanic<em>Asian
1416</em><em>1275</em><em>1347</em><em>1457</em>_SAT(Math+Verbal) </p>
<p>Duke Admissions Office Rank
White<em>Black</em>Hispanic<em>Asian
4.246</em>3.684<em>4.029</em>4.571<strong><em>Achievement
4.655</em>4.302<em>4.706</em>4.861</strong><em>Curriculum
3.432</em>3.138<em>3.236</em>3.465<strong><em>Essay
3.470</em>3.237<em>3.246</em>3.427</strong><em>Personal Qualities
3.804</em>3.467<em>3.478</em>3.918<strong><em>Letters of Recommendation
477</em></strong>215<strong><em>192</em></strong>194___number of students in sample</p>
<p>So, following the advice of friends and relatives from Fuzhou, where he is from, Ting spent more than two years poring over dog-eared test prep books, attending summer and after-school classes, even going over math formulas on the walk home from school.</p>
<p>The afternoon his acceptance letter to Stuyvesant High School arrived in the mail, he and his parents gathered at the laundromat, the smell of detergent and the whirl of the washing machines filling the air.</p>
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<p>Many of the people who score well on standardized tests are not “privileged”. They are smart, and they work hard.</p>
<p>I think this is brilliant. This is not the mission of this country’s best universities. The notion of a “strict meritocracy,” as NewHope33 suggested, is not necessarily so easy to define as some people think. It is rather convenient to suggest that true merit includes only those qualities you or your children have in abundance.</p>
<p>Thank you to GMT for sharing that paper. No wonder why Duke is on the rise as a great university.</p>
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<p>I won’t have any problems if a high score so obtained is discounted by admissions, but assuming every Asian gets his/her high score this way is troubling.</p>
<p>I don’t share your opinion of Duke. The Duke professors who wrote the politically incorrect paper have caught much flak on campus, as described on Arcidiacono’s blog </p>
<p>@Beliavsky–I hadn’t even touched on the test prep centers where students have been attending since 2nd or 3rd grade. I have a friend whose daughter travels from Manhattan to Queens every Saturday to attend one such testing center. She is the only brown face amongst asians and they treat her horribly. They shun her and make snide comments to others in english and their native tongue right in front of her face. All of these students have been together, each and every Saturday, summers and holidays since they were in elementary school. She is an outcast in so many ways. They are annoyed by her presence and feel that she doesn’t belong there. They don’t want her to learn their secrets for beating the test she was told. But she perseveres and refuses to skulk away.</p>