“When a meal was served she took her dinner roll and threw it across the aisle and klonked the other woman in the head - I kid you not”
Okay, now that’s funny. I probably would have shrieked with laughter, like I did when I read your post. Unfortunately, I have TMJ and it hurts to laugh…but that’s what Motrin is for.
Actually, as far as the miscarriage goes, Deborah and dstark, I now look at it as a positive thing. If I hadn’t had it, I wouldn’t have gotten pregnant a couple of months later with my sweet, happy youngster, sitting in my living room, laughing and eating cookies right now. And nothing could be better than that!
I must say that her tweets present her in a very unfavorable light.
dstark,
One of the frustrating things about this story is that the “facts” vary a lot in different accounts.
First, we have the mother’s version. It got picked up by CNN and that’s why it blew up. United responded saying the parents bought a seat for a disabled child in coach while they flew in business class. So, reacting to United’s version, public sentiment about this rapidly changed.
Mom then says that’s not true. We got seats for frequent flier miles. We only got upgraded when we arrived at the airport. The group got 12 biz and 4 economy and United determined how they were split up. Some family members switched with us so that we could sit with our kids. So, to me it sounds as if Ivy and one or both of her parents were given tickets in economy.
It “sounds” as if the family left an empty seat in economy and that was Ivy’s ticketed seat. If that’s the case, well United’s misunderstanding about the purchase is understandable,IMO.
I now understand–and admit that I didn’t before–that the problem wasn’t whether Ivy and her mom sat in biz or economy. She can’t sit up and it would be an issue either way. If Ivy had had an empty seat right next to her mom, mom still wouldn’t have wanted to put her in it. So, I assume that nobody volunteered to switch seats to get the plane off the ground because they realized making such an offer wouldn’t solve the problem.
Then…the solution. Some accounts suggest that the child was placed lying down over the laps of her father and another relative and buckled in. Other accounts say there was an empty seat next to the dad. The pilot suggested putting Ivy into the empty seat, fastening her into the seat belt, and having her put her head onto her father’s lap, since she couldn’t sit up. If it’s the latter, that’s closer to dealing with the safety issue because the child was strapped in for take off and landing and the FA’s demand that she be in her own seat for take off and landing was satisfied.
Ivy is over 2 years of age and weighs about 25 pounds. It isn’t safe for her to sit on a lap during take off and landing. And, it isn’t unsafe just for her, but also for anyone else who might get injured if she went flying through the air.
The “we’ve always gotten away with this, so why now?” defense doesn’t “play” well. When is the last time Ivy flew? Maybe the earlier flights were long enough ago that most FAs ASSUMED she was under 2. But in the photos now, she doesn’t look under 2. The fact that she is “developmentally” 6 months, as the mom says, is a tragedy. None of us deny that. But that doesn’t make it safe for her to sit on a lap during take off and landing.
I know that United has “apologized,” but I get the impression it has also informed this family that it won’t be flying on United again unless Ivy is placed in an appropriate safety seat.
At many hospitals now, when a new born and mom go home, the car taking them home has to have a car seat properly installed and it has to have been inspected by the hospital before baby is released. The hospital will not allow new mommies to take a taxi home unless they have brought a car seat and it is properly installed.
It’s not an excuse that you “didn’t know.”
So why is it an excuse that a wealthy family traveling by air “didn’t know?”
If Ivy had been injured during take off and landing, would the parents have blamed United saying that it failed to inform them that holding her on mom’s lap was unsafe?
The real failure here was that the parents failed to bring a safe seat for their child—not that an FA lacked “compassion.”
The “can’t sit up” explanation is what I find the most troubling. I don’t have a disabled child, but if I did, I would be constantly looking for ways to help her do what her able-bodied siblings and friends could do. In the Kirschenbaums’ case, they clearly valued giving Ivy “freedoms” when it suited them. They found a bike seat in the Dominican Republic that allowed her to experience the exhilaration of moving through the open air. I guarantee that back at home in New Jersey, they offer her other opportunities to achieve even a small degree of normalcy in her life. I would imagine, actually, that they are huge advocates for her on the playground, at preschool, or wherever else she might go. So to play the “can’t” card for the purpose of their own comfort on a four-hour flight seems just a little hypocritical to me.
I don’t know why people seem to think they’re having private conversations on Twitter.
I find myself wondering what would have happened if the mom, when first approached by the FA had said, “I’m so sorry. I thought we could hold her because that’s been our experience in the past. I understand now that she needs to be belted into her seat. The problem is that she has a medical condition that makes it impossible for her to hold her head up on her own and being belted into a regular seat would be very dangerous for her. Can you help us figure out a solution that would keep her safe and still satisfy the regulations?” My guess is that the FA would have done whatever she could to help. Of course the mom would have had to accept the solution.
I’ve taught my kids that it’s never productive to verbally abuse people, particularly those in a position to help you. I remember a few years ago when I was stranded overnight in Houston with my 3 kids when my plane arrived late. We got to the hotel and ended up in line behind a guy who was screaming at the person at check in that he needed an additional room. Citing his gold/platinum/einsteinium status he demanded that they find a room, despite the woman’s response that there simply were no rooms available. He left cursing her. When we got to the desk I politely requested that if additional rooms became available we be allowed to purchase one, explaining that a single room meant that my teenage son would have to share a bed with either his sister or his mother, an awkward situation for a kid at that awkward phase. When she apologized for the lack of a second room we accepted our lot and checked in to our room.
Guess who got a phone call half an hour later when a room was released? Hint, it wasn’t Mister “I’m more important than God.”
Calmom, I think there is plenty of support for the fa here. 
Nrdsb4’s first part of her last post was very good. Didn 't trash either person.
Jonri, :). People like to blame people.
Sad, but relevant article.
I do wonder if there would be more sympathy for the mom if she had not started a campaign to get the FA fired. Surely the mom has to admit that the FA had the rules on her side, regardless of how badly the FA handled the situation otherwise. I think by overstating her case, the mom comes off as the unreasonable bad guy when more likely both she and the FA could have handled the situation better.
Great summary, Jonri.
As a follow-up story to Harvestmoon’s flying parkerhouses, I witnessed the opposite on a flight from Germany to France. One gentleman was carefully taking things out of an overhead compartment right across frommy seat to rearrange them so as to place his bag in the bin. Just as he bent down to reach for his bag to place it in the nicely cleared space in the bin, someone (another guy, IIRC) placed his bag in the space the first man had just cleared for his own. I thought the first gentleman was going to have a cow. Instead, just the opposite. He calmly took his bag and found another spot way further down the plane. What a kind, calm gentleman. I was astonished.
Sobering article, Jonri. Thank you for sharing it.
Dstark, before you condemn the FA for her “lack of compassion,” perhaps you should consider that maybe she’d seen the impact of an unrestrained lap child up close and personal.
“I’ve taught my kids that it’s never productive to verbally abuse people, particularly those in a position to help you.”
That’s for sure. You never know when it can come back to bite you, or if you are kind, it can come back to help you.
I had to fly last Dec 24th, didn’t get home until late. But my last leg of the day, a pilot from my company asked to jumpseat on the flight. He was really stressed out about getting home for Christmas, as his son had recently had a stroke, and it was more important than ever that he get home. I didn’t know if he was thinking that perhaps this was his last Christmas, and certainly didn’t want to ask that.
Unfortunately, we were really late. Maintenance issues, nothing whatsoever we could do, over an hour and a half late to our destination. As he left, I apologized for the delay to him, telling him that I hoped he made it home in time for dinner. Instead of saying something crabby to me, or just mumbling good bye, this man, with tears in his eyes, gave me a big hug and said, “Thank you for getting me home for Christmas!”
Okay, if this guy ever asks me for anything…a jumpseat, a trip trade, a favor…the answer is a resounding YES.
The safety first argument would be more convincing if it wasn’t arbitrarily defined as ok for a 23.5 month old of any weight, even much heavier than Ivy, to be held on a lap.
I don’t believe United determined whom to upgrade.
If the pax were upgraded using someone else’s freq flyer miles, doesn’t that person have to determine the beneficiaries of the miles? Even if the upgraded pax in the party were upgraded using their own personal freq flyer miles, United doesn’t arbitrarily give that person’s miles to someone else.
The issue of who was upgraded still doesn’t affect the bottom line that anyone in the party could have switched seats.
“If the pax were upgraded using someone else’s freq flyer miles, doesn’t that person have to determine the beneficiaries of the miles? Even if the upgraded pax in the party were upgraded using their own personal freq flyer miles, United doesn’t arbitrarily give that person’s miles to someone else”
I’d gather that people who had frequent flyer status were the only ones that were upgraded. I agree, United will not just arbitrarily upgrade people who don’t have status and aren’t on the upgrade list, and they certainly won’t increase the miles required on the ticket.
I agree with you. In any case, whether they were redeemed for premium or just upgraded (that’s a LOT of regional premier upgrades - for a 4 hour flight??? This guy must be rolling in miles) doesn’t matter to the events of the story. Nor does it really matter – or did it ever matter – who “technically” was assigned any of the seats.
RE: post #368
The lap child who died in that accident was Evan Tsao. I know the family. My husband and Evan’s father worked together for two decades in the same small research group. I knew the family when the accident happened. Evan’s death wreaked unbelievable damage on his parents, particularly his mother who was holding Evan on the floor between her knees as directed by the FA. Evan not only flew out of her grip, but Evan’s body was not found until much later, among the last bodies to be recovered after the crash. I’ve heard Sylvia describe what it felt like when she lost her grip on Evan. I never want to have to experience what she did.
Evan was the Tsaos only child.
Evan was just 14 months younger than my older child.
Because of what happened to Evan, my children have never ever flown unless there were belted into a safety seat in their own paid-for seat. Not even when I was traveling alone cross country on a non-direct flight with 2 plane changes with a 4 month old and 4 1/2 year old and dragging two car seats, a stroller, a carry-on and diaper bag.
Pizzagirl, maybe.
I don’t know the fa. I don’t know her experiences. I am not condemning her.
I don’t have enough info. I wasn’t there.
I think the fa said something to the mother that set her off.
The daughter really can’t sit without support.
Busdriver11, nice story in post 373.
WayOutWest, that is a tragic story. Wow …in a bad way.