Monetary, intellectual, social value of HS summer experiences

<p>Northstarmom, I am not really sure if we are all talking about the same thing with the phrase “package tour”. I know my son’s AFS experience was “packaged”, but not very well planned – the adult assigned to chaperone the kids on their flight didn’t show, so 15 american kids were left on their own to change planes in Tokyo; one of the kids ended up with a host family who didn’t want him and gave him to someone else; my son couldn’t figure out how to operate the pay phones and his phone card wouldn’t work anyway, so he never did figure out how to call home; the flight home from Bangkok was cancelled by the airline…</p>

<p>Maybe commercial outfits do a lot better. The foreign exchange outfits are a kind of a seat-of-the-pants operation, and they have been that way for many years. They also screen the students, with an application and interview process. I wouldn’t say its hard to get to be a foreign exchange student, but kids who are very passive would probably be turned down – they look for kids who are self-sufficient and resilient. </p>

<p>I also don’t think you should draw too many conclusions by how talkative a kid is at an interview. My son has always been the reserved type, quite reticent – and probably exactly the sort of guy who isn’t going to give you much info from a direct personal question. I realize that when you are interviewing Harvard prospects you might expect someone more talkative – and my son can talk your ear off if you want to talk politics and ask him his opinion on current issues – but the passivity you see must be a result of the type of kids who interview with you, not the things that they have done. I would guess that in your work you do see a lot of kids from affluent families who are being pushed by their parents to apply to Harvard. But you would be drawing the wrong conclusion if you associate the fact that many of these kids have participated in packaged travel experiences with their passivity: maybe that’s just one thing that parents of passive kids try to arrange for them in the hopes that they will become more adventurous. It doesn’t mean that adventurous kids don’t also do the same. </p>

<p>I certainly am impressed with the kid who found the summer job at the French resort on the internet. Good thing he wasn’t my kid – there was no way in hell that I would have let my son go off on his own to some place overseas that I hadn’t thoroughly checked out. Especially since my son had the idea that he wanted to go somewhere exotic. Call me a wimp, but when my kids were teenagers, a responsible adult organizer or chaperone was an element I considered essential to any overseas travel plans. That tends to come with a “package” of some sort. </p>

<p>My kids both worked during high school, by the way. Just because they are traveling doesn’t mean they don’t also hold down jobs when they are home.</p>

<p>Travel is enriching. I only wish I could do more of it and hope that some day when I’ll have more money and time, I can do more of it. Youth is a time when, if funds are available, one can find the time. The travels to other places increases a sense of the world. It also is a stepping stone to independence. I have only gotten to go to Europe ONCE so far and that was at age 17 on a summer teen tour. If not then, I wouldn’t have seen any of it yet. I went, just like my oldest D…out of strong desire to do a travel trip…no parental suggestion, no college admissions in mind. </p>

<p>Older D has traveled more than younger D. Younger D says she would have loved those trips but would not give up her summer theater camp to attend. Older D did not use these trips for college essays. However, all of her summer experiences are on her annotated activity resume. I just looked at it since we are talking about it now. She mentions going away on these trips without knowing a soul (something my D has done many times with camps, trips, college). She mentions how much she wanted to see the country. Some of her fondest highlights of her US trip was skiing at Whistler (she is a lifelong ski racer and had never skied out west and never in summer until that point), surfing in Honolulu (has waterskied and snow skied and was dying to learn how to surf), and hiking in the Grand Tetons. While none of this formed a college essay, I recall one essay about a soccer experience (the point of the essay really wasn’t soccer but I won’t get into that now) but there is a one line reference in that essay about how she did physical training all summer leading up to preseason and how this meant rising early to run while everyone on her teen tour was sleeping in their tents (part of this trip was camping). </p>

<p>She mentions highlights of her European tennis tour…going to Wimbledon, surfing in Biarritz (surfing again), and climbing the Eiffel Tower, all the while improving her tennis serve and French at the same time (loves French and had gone on trips to France and Quebec City with French Club). I recall in another essay, again, NOT about these trips, but in talking about architecture (her intended major) and how it combines so many of her interests and sides of her self (the essay had to do with her well roundedness and “sides”), she has a one line reference to architectural sites she’d seen in Europe. These things weave together as they are all connected. </p>

<p>Even at the end of her resume, where she lists additional interests beyond her ECs, she lists travel and indeed, that is a big interest of hers. </p>

<p>Because she has traveled on supervised trips both in and out of the country, it has been a stepping stone to her going the next level. So, she toured the US with a supervised tour summer before 11th grade and then summer after frosh year in college, she drove cross the country to Alaska with two friends. So, she was to Europe summer before 12th grade and in France on school trip in 11th grade, now she leaves for France in two days by herself to take a job. But first she flies to Paris and will be there two days on her own before traveling to her job. When the job ends, she will spend ten days traveling on her own. Big step for me. But for her? Not so big because she has supervised travel under her belt. Even on the supervised trips, they let the kids go off for short periods of time on their own. My D says on her tennis tour of Europe, she was the best French speaker in the group and the group relied on her a lot as an interpretor. </p>

<p>Now, she is going to work in a children’s summer program where the French kids are immersed in English at the program. She has to prepare some activities and is doing that right now. Due to her travels all over the US, she has a lot to draw upon as she shares her country. I am so glad she saw our great country, something everyone should do once. I did it the summer before graduate school as I was married with no kids and knew it would be a LONG time until we could spend six weeks seeing the country and camping out. I was right…haven’t done it since…vacations are no longer than one week…can’t do that in a week. Can’t see Europe in a week either. Also, my children studied French since first grade and one continued with it in college and so to be able to go to France and spend time and use the language, it is a great experience. </p>

<p>There are reasons my D did these trips. I know she was enriched. She begged to go. She lists long term goals…she had a plan of how she wanted to spend her HS summers and has another plan of how she wants to spend her college summers and the plans are based on her interests and desires and goals. They are personal goals and not tied to getting in anywhere. This is no different than her choice of EC activities. Those were not picked with college admissions in mind. </p>

<p>The way I see it…do what interests you and what you can afford. Present whatever that is to colleges and show who you are and what you are about. There is no magic activity that should be done to impress. Be who you are and when it is time to apply, show who you are. If something like a travel trip is one of your strong interests and your parents can or are willing to fund that interest, so be it. I don’t think it will keep you out of college. My kid who did travel trips is attending one of her first choice schools. She had a goal to study abroad in college and that ties into her travel and foreign culture interests. Indeed, right as she has planned in her long term goals, she will study abroad in Italy this fall. I think genuine interest can shine through. Travel can be an interest like anything else. In her case, it is one of many interests. If she had done it just to get into college, she wouldn’t now be choosing to do it the summers she is IN college. But she is. I could say the same of the EC activities. They weren’t done to get into college. They may not be unique or impressive but were long held genuine interests and many are continued IN college. </p>

<p>Just be who you are and do what you enjoy. The rest will follow. If it costs money and your family can or will pay, so be it. I don’t quite get frowning upon travel trips for teens due to the large cost…when some choose to spend money on private schools and other expensive things for their kids. My kids didn’t go to private schools though I don’t frown upon those who have paid a fortune to do so. Some kids love travel programs. Frankly, my daughters’ summer theater camps were JUST as expensive as the travel programs but I get the feeling that that expense is not as frowned upon (is it more educational? dunno). I see lots of kids who have had privileges growing up that cost a lot and many of those kids are at very selective schools so I don’t think selective schools are throwing out apps where kids have done expensive activities. Yes, it is refreshing when they see poor students who have taken on some really interesting activities or work experiences. But in the scheme of things, they look for kids with strong interests and commitments and accomplishments. I don’t think it is taken against them if some of their activities cost money. It is more important the level of interest, committment, and achievements. That can be shown through any endeavor, no matter if costly or free.</p>

<p>Calmom wrote:
"I certainly am impressed with the kid who found the summer job at the French resort on the internet. Good thing he wasn’t my kid – there was no way in hell that I would have let my son go off on his own to some place overseas that I hadn’t thoroughly checked out. Especially since my son had the idea that he wanted to go somewhere exotic. Call me a wimp, but when my kids were teenagers, a responsible adult organizer or chaperone was an element I considered essential to any overseas travel plans. That tends to come with a “package” of some sort. "</p>

<p>I wholeheartedly agree. No way was I going to let my high schooler go off to a foreign country by herself and do a job with no superivision or organization. She did supervised packaged trips. However, now she is 19 and NOW she did find a job in France on her own by researching jobs (she got two offers…one was a resort like the kid Northstarmom mentions…a gorgeous chateau in a resort area), and she will travel to France by herself and make her way. After her job ends, she will travel on her own. But I never would have let her do this in high school. However, those packaged trips were a great stepping stone. The supervised US trip she did in HS one summer was a precursor to at age 18 driving 6000 miles from VT to Alaska unsupervised. Gradual steps for my kiddos. HS…was a time for supervised summer programs. College is a time that my kids are away on their own unsupervised. My 17 year old (only cause she has been through a year of college already) is living on her own in another state in a rental house doing a summer job in her field, and didn’t know a soul when she arrived five days ago. She also has a car. In HS…no way would she be allowed to do this. She attended a supervised theater CAMP, lol. One step at a time…</p>

<p>Cheers:
S1 is the shy one, though S2 is not very far behind. If interviews had counted for more, neither of them would have been admitted to colelges.
S1 is the travel-happy one. He loved the Picasso and the Orsay museum (we first went when he was in his choo-choo phase and could hardly get him out of the museum at closing time). We also spent a great deal of time at the Gare de Lyon watching TGVs leave which left no time for shopping. We did eat at the Train Bleu, however.</p>

<p>calmom, you missed the point entirely</p>

<p>these kids had so much time for shopping, yet to go to something that is a once in a lifetime event, if you are lucky, so you can shop some more is just stupid, sorry, but after parents paid thousands of dollars, I would bet they would want their child to see Winged Victory, the Egyption collections, the art</p>

<p>I said Mona Lisa because it is easily recognizible, but these girls chose shopping over the Arch De Triumph and Notre Dame, and got bored at the D’Orsey…</p>

<p>My girls LOVED the museums, and LOVED shopping and interacting, I am just saying to miss out of some classics to shop is dumb</p>

<p>And to not go the the Vatician Museum is a shame…</p>

<p>Guess my point was that a trip abroad shouldn’t just be about shopping</p>

<p>Which we did do, by the way</p>

<p>Guess my point was too subtle</p>

<p>You think the packaged programs are perfect…far from it…from talking to many of my Ds friends who have gone on at least the school ones, not a whole lot of evening chaperoning going on, and these are different programs, different schools, supervision is mainly, go have fun, we meet back here in 4 hours, and check in at 11 and go to your room, see you at 8am…that is often the supervision</p>

<p>And it would be nice f you went into Notre Dame, where history was made, but if that bores you, go shopping once again</p>

<p>yep</p>

<p>My D got herself an intertenship this year at a radio show…met Daniel Elsberg the other day…tres cool</p>

<p>“Northstarmom, I am not really sure if we are all talking about the same thing with the phrase “package tour”. I know my son’s AFS experience was “packaged”, but not very well planned – the adult assigned to chaperone the kids on their flight didn’t show, so 15 american kids were left on their own to change planes in Tokyo; one of the kids ended up with a host family who didn’t want him and gave him to someone else; my son couldn’t figure out how to operate the pay phones and his phone card wouldn’t work anyway, so he never did figure out how to call home; the flight home from Bangkok was cancelled by the airline…”</p>

<p>I am not talking about AFS or other programs in which the students live abroad with families or do real immersion language studying abroad. The packaged tours that I am referring to are the ones in which American students travel around in large chaperoned groups, stay together in American style hotels, and mainly socialize with each other.</p>

<p>When S and I spent a summer in Paris a few years ago, we quickly learned to get far away from American students who were in those kind of tour groups. Why? The Americans stood out like sore thumbs: For instance, when S and I were on a Seine boatride that had at least 50 students who were traveling together, we couldn’t even hear the descriptions of the sites blaring from the loudspeakers. Why? The American students were talking so loudly among themselves. They also were rude, dropped soda cans all over, and did other boorish things.</p>

<p>I assume those were the kind of abroad tours that were had by students who told me in college interviews that what their travel abroad taught them was, “People are people.”</p>

<p>I have not heard cliches like that from students who have traveled abroad without being constantly surrounded by American teens.</p>

<p>" But you would be drawing the wrong conclusion if you associate the fact that many of these kids have participated in packaged travel experiences with their passivity: maybe that’s just one thing that parents of passive kids try to arrange for them in the hopes that they will become more adventurous. It doesn’t mean that adventurous kids don’t also do the same. "</p>

<p>I agree that adventurous kids may end up on the kind of packaged tours packed with American teens. However, the difference between them and the more passive kids is that probably the more adventurous kids probably don’t bring up their packaged tours during their Harvard interviews. They probably have more interesting things to talk about – things that they have been involved in creating, interests that they have independently pursued.</p>

<p>I ask a lot of open ended questions starting with “Tell me about yourself.” Consequently, if I end up hearing a cliche-ridden travelogue, that’s either because the student chose to focus on that or the student was so tongue tied or passive that I ended up asking questions based on the student’s resume/activity sheet, something I ask students to bring with them.</p>

<p>Northstarmom, I agree with you that going on a group tour -whether for teens or anything else typically arranged by a travel agent - is not the sort of thing that ought to be expected to build a college application. But your first post to this thread on the topic was:

[quote]
I personally think that those pricey European tours and community service projects are wastes of money for most people who seem to sign up their kids for them thinking those enhance their college apps.<a href=“emphasis%20added%20by%20me”>/quote</a> </p>

<p>I am quite sure that the kids you saw being rude in Paris are not involved in any community service tour – whether organized by AFS or any other private outfit. I also know that community service trips are not 100% community service – on the summer programs the kids are taken sightseeing and the trip includes fun group activities. But they generally end up in rural areas and the kids spend a lot of time doing things that are not very much fun, and often involve physical labor and getting their hands dirty. </p>

<p>What bothers me is that you lumped them all together at the outset. I can’t imagine anyone trying to impress a Harvard interviewer by relating their grand tour of the great cities of Europe – but the kid who has been helping feed orphans in Ghana just might have learned a lot from the experience, even if their expression of what they learned seems cliched to you. I mean, what is the kid going to say: “I learned that it Africa is hot and miserable with too many flies and hungry orphans whine a lot and can be really annoying.” Of course not - but it is very possible that the kid went off on some excursion to a remote corner of the globe and the net result was that the kid found the experience really depressing. But of course that isn’t PC, and you sure aren’t going to say that to someone who is interviewing you for Harvard. </p>

<p>I’m just saying that rather than you really shouldn’t “assume” that all these trips are the same, or all kids who go on them are the same. My kids didn’t list every vacation they have ever taken on their college resumes; they understood that their cruise on the Grand Princess was a different type of affair entirely. If the college app asked them to list what they did over the summers, then they’d list the vacations – but that doesn’t mean they were trying to impress anyone. </p>

<p>But the fact that it’s not a college-resume builder doesn’t negate the experience of simply traveling. I also have been a tourist and I am very glad that there are group tours available for kids. Many of these school-group tours that you and Citygirlsmom seem to condemn are filled with kids who would never get to go to Europe any other way. That’s no excuse for rudeness, but just because you saw some groups acting rude doesn’t mean they are all that way. I mean, I see groups of kids on school field trips to local museums acting rude all the time, and I also see other groups coming through that are respectful and well-behaved. That doesn’t make me think that its a bad thing for school groups to go on field trips – I just think that adults who are supposed to supervise the rude ones are doing a poor job of it. The problem is that if there is a group of traveling teenager who are being polite and well behaved, you probably wouldn’t even notice them.</p>

<p>

No, you missed my point. </p>

<p>You seem to think that if kids go to Europe they ought to do what you think is valuable and important. If they are on a packaged tour, then the Louvre ought to be on the agenda, and the kids ought to be forced to go whether they want to or not. </p>

<p>Not everyone is an art lover. I like museums so I went to them in Paris, but I also remember touring Europe at age 16 and getting very sick and tired of visiting castles and cathedrals. It wasn’t that I didn’t want to visit any, it’s that they all kind of seemed the same after the 5th one or so. So when we got to Helsingor, I skipped the castle tour and walked down to the beach. Yeah, the others in the group found the tour interesting; I really liked the beach. It was a good day.</p>

<p>I just was trying to point out to you that there’s another point of view.</p>

<p>"I can’t imagine anyone trying to impress a Harvard interviewer by relating their grand tour of the great cities of Europe – but the kid who has been helping feed orphans in Ghana just might have learned a lot from the experience, even if their expression of what they learned seems cliched to you. "</p>

<p>But I interviewed kids who did try to impress me by relating their grand tour of the great cities of Europe.</p>

<p>I also have interviewed students who tried to impress me by saying that they had done community service abroad, but when I asked them about this service, they were so vague or cliched that it was clear that the “service” was basically nonexistant. This was “service” that allegedly was done by students who visited their immigrant parents’ home countries.</p>

<p>When reading what I post, it’s important to realize that I begin my interviews by asking the very open ended question, “Tell me about yourself.” When I contact students to schedule interviews, I also tell them to come prepared with a resume or activity list, and to be prepared to speak up about themselves and their accomplishments. The students who give me vague descriptions about experiences that they alleged to have done have had every opportunity to be prepared to talk. When I end up turning to their resumes/activity sheets to ask questions, that’s because the student themselves hasn’t spoken much about info that lets me know about themselves and their talents and interests. If the main thing that I learn from an inteview is a travelogue, that’s because that’s what the student feels is the best that they have to offer.</p>

<p>When it comes to traveling, I love to travel and have done lots of travel abroad with my kids. This includes a community service trip that through no fault of ours was horrible: We did no community service because the place that allegedly invited us to do service didn’t want service, just $. None of us would try to pass that off in an interview as community service. Whenever I’ve talked about it – including in things like interviews for jobs – I have talked about how it taught me how NOT to do community service. </p>

<p>I also do know students who have done things like mission trips in which they really did community service, and learned a lot from the experience. These students are able to describe what they did, and what they learned, and even shy ones light up when they talk, and don’t vaguely describe the experience as something that taught them that “people are people.”</p>

<p>I have to admit, however, that an abroad experience has never been the center of any of the Harvard interviews that I would describe as “excellent.” Why? Many of those students had been abroad, and even had done volunteer work abroad. However, their abroad experiences were overshadowed by the volunteer and other things that they had done in their own home towns or country. Consequently, other things ended up being what stood out.</p>

<p>For instance, one young man who was the most outstanding student whom I have ever interviewed (and an accquaintance who interviewed the same student for another Ivy describes the student the same way) had done some community service in, I think, a hospital in his parents’ home country.</p>

<p>I can’t remember those details, however, because what was even more remarkable was the student’s year-long accomplishments as the top national officer of a major student organization, the student’s two-year long mentoring of a classmate who was going to be a first generation college student, the student’s leadership in school activities and the student’s regional and national honors in two very different fields. The student also had done a lot of ECs over his parent’s objections because they were immigrants who only wanted him to study all of the time. His managing to mollify his parents without alienating them also demonstrated his character. </p>

<p>When it comes to abroad experiences, one that I think would have been noteworthy in an interview is that of the young man who managed to work in the French resort that he found on the Internet. The things that concern parents here – his going abroad by himself to an unchaperoned place at such a young age – are exactly the things that would make him stand out in an interview or a college pool.</p>

<p>It takes quite a remarkable teen to have the maturity, independence, creativity and probably the persuasive skills to manage to do something like that. Only someone, too, with real passion for the experience would bother because there would be so many hurdles to jump over.</p>

<p>The teens who have that kind of intellectual passion aren’t forced into doing things or led into doing things by their parents. Their parents usually are trying to slow them down. I don’t know his parents well, but I imagine that they are like most of us – would need to take a lot of convincing before we’d send our 17-year-old off to France to work at a place that he found on the Internet. For a student also to be successful at finding such a place and surviving the experience is also a big testimony to their character, and admissions officers and interviewers would recognize that, too.</p>

<p>Please emember that my comments really apply to only the very top colleges. For most college admission offices, it’s a very big deal even when a student has been willing to go on a packaged tour abroad in which the students travel in packs. Most students (heck, most adults) would be too timid to do something like that with a group of strangers, so being willing to do that does indicate a level of maturity and responsibility that would bode well for the student’s being able to adjust well to and contribute to a college environment.</p>

<p>An activity that wouldn’t impress an adcom at HPYS may very well tip a student in for admissions at most other colleges in the country.</p>

<p>[While the packaged tour experiences probably won’t impress HPYS adcoms, they won’t reject students because of those tours. I’m sure that many HPYS have gone on such tours. The tours, however, aren’t what got them into top colleges unless perhaps the students are improverished, from uneducated backgrounds, but mangaged to raise the money for the trips. Otherwise, what got the students in probably was their other academic or EC accomplishments.]</p>

<p>Meanwhile, how people spend their money or summers is up to them. The only reason I’m commenting is that if people think that the packaged tour-with-a-large-group of Americans trips or community service abroad by definition will open doors at HPYS, they are wasting their money. Certainly the teens may learn things by going beyond their comfort zones, and those lessons will probably serve them well for life. However, if the purpose is to get them into HPYS, the parents are wasting their $.</p>

<p>For my D the trips were not a waste of money. She could care less if they impressed adcoms. It wasn’t the focus of her resume, her interviews or essays. She loved the experiences themselves. She also took complete initiative to seek out researching summer travel programs. It was all her idea, not the parents’ suggestion. College admissions was irrelevant, never came up. </p>

<p>The student who took the initiative to get the summer job in France…that is very cool. My own D is doing that exact thing now at age 19. She would have initiated such a thing at 16 (her last summer of HS) but there is no way we’d let her go on her own to an unsupervised situation overseas at age 16. She therefore, looked into programs, which we would allow her to do. In her research, she came across a program that combined European travel with competitive tennis and is very involved in that sport. She looked into so many things. Through her research, she landed on this one and we paid to let her go. </p>

<p>These trips were never the focus of her interviews. Yes, on the apps and resume, where it asks for summer experiences, she listed them. She has many initiatives, accomplishments and lifelong EC activities in which she has achieved at a state level (ie., performing arts and sports). If asked about her summer experiences, she would share her enthusiasm for why she did them and what she loved about them. Her summers in HS included six week summer performing arts camps, travel trips in the US and abroad, and an internship with an architect which she found on her own. Since then, she has also held jobs in summer. </p>

<p>I don’t think an abroad experience is only worthwhile if it includes community service. I think a trip that meets someone’s interests is all that matters. My kid has done community service in high school and college out of choice (no requirements here for graduation). Her service activities are related to her interests. </p>

<p>I have to agree with Calmom…and have said this too, that I don’t doubt you have interviewed students who come across as you say. But that doesn’t mean that all who do these sorts of activities have done so with the same degree or lack thereof of motivation or interest. Also, the continued talk of how these activities do not “impress” adcoms…I don’t understand. Students shouldn’t do activities to look good for college admissions. They should pick activities that they are very interested in doing and then contribute in a significant capacity and achieve in those endeavors. I think you would agree but then if that is the way to go, then we can’t also say that X, Y, or Z doesn’t impress. Should students be looking for activities that DO impress?</p>

<p>As a college interviewer, I look for demonstrated interest over time, significant initiative/participation/contributions/leadership, and achievements. If a student goes abroad on some service project but also is involved in service at home, there is a connection. If a student goes abroad to play competitive tennis and is interested in other cultures and is a competitive tennis player in HS, then there is a connection. As well, not EVERY activity a kid does has to be significant for college. My D who goes to Brown has so many accomplishments academically and in her EC endeavors, that does it really matter if one summer she chose to tour the US, Western Canada and Hawaii with a bunch of teens she had never met? That certainly is not her most signficant activity whatsoever. She simply wanted to travel and camp out and so forth. We could not take her on such a trip. Who cares if this trip had no impact with college admissions. It surely would never impress. Does that matter? She has the academics and EC achievements to the wazoo already. These trips did not form the backbone of her resume or interviews. If asked about summers, she’d go on and on and tell you how much she loved them but these are not the main things one would think of when describing her background. As far as college interviews, she went into them with an agenda of what she wanted to show about herself no matter what questions were asked. Nobody had to probe and probe her. </p>

<p>I have to say that these travel interests are carrying over into college given that she has chosen to go abroad this summer and again all next fall. The interest in travel and foreign cultures was not made up for college admissions…it has been there and continues to be there. It is not her main “activity” but she did list “travel” under “additional interests” on her resume. I don’t think one can generalize about all travel trips or all kids who go on them. On top of that, while they are costly, so are the summer programs my kids did in this country though for some reason, I believe that some here would deem those more worthwhile or justifiable. As well, my kids are far from rich. They have also held jobs. I think there is just so much generalization. </p>

<p>I don’t feel like one cent was wasted on these activities. They were not meant to open college doors. The activities were chosen by the child for their own sake, nothing more. However, I must comment that the college doors opened widely for her regardless.</p>

<p>PS…I am curiously interested in the concept of on the one hand, don’t pick activities with college admissions in mind (I so much agree with this) but on the other hand, we are discussing that certain activities would not impress adcoms at highly selective colleges. Does this mean that the student SHOULD care about which activities to select that WOULD impress? I just want to understand this better.</p>

<p>I don’t think that students should necessarily care about what things look like to colleges- but I think they should actively think about- how do I want to spend my summer?
Is this choice- going to help me along my path?</p>

<p>Whether it is working fast food- so they can earn money for school-or if a study abroad trip helps them find what kind of learning they are excited about- I would like kids to feel like they accomplished something with their time.</p>

<p>I spent my summers- doing odd jobs, just enough to keep me in bikinis and beer, and my perspective was strictly short term.</p>

<p>I hope that kids have adults who are able to guide them to good experiences for them, whatever that is, so they can accomplish their goals.</p>

<p>Well then, if it’s okay for kids from lesser schools than Harvard, we’ll be right.</p>

<p>Mind you, mine did a bonafide community service project in Tanzania. His funds helped to buy the building materials for a rather large cement block primary school facility which he built with his UK group, plus two local builders from the rural village. As the world-wide majority of community service volunteers are female, he and the one other fellow in the group did the grunt work. He lived with a Tanzanian farmer for those six weeks but on the weekends the group went into town with the younger locals and went to the disco–possibly behaving in an ‘obnoxious’ fashion. Another long weekend, he and the other fellow climbed Mount Kilamanjaro.</p>

<p>The H interview may be the all-important decider for some, but for others, such a narrow framework would be considered too provincial, not the way to approach a global life.</p>

<p>I must be losing my mind, I really thought I posted something, and its not here…aw well, it was really good!!!</p>

<p>Anyway, my points were:</p>

<p>It is the kid in the program that makes the difference, you can have a princess girl who really gets into a service project, and another who does the minimum</p>

<p>You can have a kid on a packaged tour who parties the whole time, or a kid who takes advantage of the place they are in, exploring, learning, and seeing everything, knowing they may never get back</p>

<p>You can have a kid in a camp- JSA, etc- who does it for the appearances, and you can have another that does it for the joy of the learning, etc</p>

<p>You can have a kid who goes to Austraia to play his favorite sport for a week who matures enourmously, or you can have a girl who does a dance camp that comes home the same- snooty</p>

<p>My point is sometimes a paid for organized program can really help and be good for a kid, or it can be a waste, depending on the kid</p>

<p>My Ds 6 weeks away in England and Ireland- for her she is the exploring, not wanting to miss a thing, seeing it all type of girl, while I am sure there will be kids in the same program that are going to get away from mom and dad</p>

<p>My other Ds camp- filmmakng and acting - are her passions, and I think the experience of being on a college campus, without me there for feedback, etc, will help her grow, and for some kids, it will really help their acting, for my D its a chance to do something different, something not everyone in her very sports oriented school do, and help her realize that her passions, while not always acknowledged at her school, becuase, beleive me, it is a sports school (we even got an athletic counselor to help the jocks), to see that her path and her interests are wonderful and if her friends don’t get it…it doesn’t matter</p>

<p>I think we all kind of agree on many things…for me, I have done things with my Ds that smoe kids do on organized tours- both had different benefits and problems</p>

<p>My last point is, if we give kids choices sometimes to skip something, like the Louvre or an old church, cause they would rather do something else, we need to remember that this may be the one time they can see what the big deal is, walking in the footsteps of history</p>

<p>A few years ago, we did a soccer tour through Scotland, there was time we were at the Cantebury Catherdral…what an experience</p>

<p>Well, some girls walked in the door, said we are done, and went shopping…well, the ones that chose to continiue on, exploring that huge building, moving downstairs, well those girls learned- about class, about war, about history, about people…all from one building…</p>

<p>For those that missed it, well, they will never go back probably, and when they read about history, they have lost a chance to bring it to life</p>

<p>So the Mona Lisa is small, so what…the man who painted it changed the world…</p>

<p>If my mom had let me bow out of seeing the Van Gogh museum in Amsterdam cause I was tired of museums, she would not be doing me any favors…</p>

<p>

And that is exactly what is wrong with elite college admissions – you telegraph that readily available and age-appropriate activities aren’t good enough; the Harvard candidate has to be a prodigy, functioning at age 15 as if he were 30. So that’s why you get situations like the kid in Florida who flew off on his own to Baghdad – or the girl who plagiarized to write a novel. They think that’s what they need to do to impress.</p>

<p>And I don’t believe the French resort story for an instant – I’ll bet the kid either got the internship through family connections, or through one of those web sites geared to matching students up with situations - like transitionsabroad.com - and it was as much pre-packaged and prearranged as anything else. Through my work I have contacts all over the world - I could easily have arranged a “job” for one of my kids in another country – and of course the kid isn’t going to tell the interviewer that the internship is something the parents or a family friend arranged. It’s easy enough for the kid to say he “found” something on his own on the internet. </p>

<p>So basically the kid who develops a talent for hedging a little on the truth when it comes to describing various activities is at a huge advantage. Maybe instead of mentioning AFS, my son would have been better off to have said that he “found” an opportunity to go teach English in a rural village of Thailand on the internet - it would be literally true, since we “found” the AFS site on the internet. Then, later on, my daughter “found” and arranged a homestay with a private family in Russia on the internet. Is that better now?</p>

<p>If you want to see youngsters who are truly courageous, adventurous, and dedicated to service - as well as traveling abroad in droves – I can tell you where to find them. They aren’t applying to Harvard. They are signing up with military recruiters at their high schools. </p>

<p>It seems to me, reading between the lines, that you personally don’t value community service abroad very highly, maybe because you see that as a mark of privilege rather than true giving. Obviously, it is a waste of resources to spend $5000 to travel abroad when a person can do community service for free at home, and donate the same $5000 to charity. So you are measuring a cultural exchange program in terms of its intrinic value as a charity, and – I think – asking all the wrong questions. Because the teaching-English-to-kids part wasn’t the main focus of my son’s Thai trip – the cultural immersion was. And if you signed up for an adult community service trip and were disappointed because the natives really just needed money – I think you missed an opportunity to learn the first lesson of travel abroad: things aren’t always what you expect. My son didn’t write his college essay about community service – he wrote his essay about teenage prostitution in Pattaya Beach and the Thai concept of mai pen rai. </p>

<p>One irony I see among many of the posts here is the imposition of an American standard of values in measuring the worth of international experiences. Americans like to accomplish things; Americans are ambitious; Americans are impressed by leadership and individuality. So the value of the international experience is measured in those terms – which, I think, simply shows a lack of appreciation for what cultural exchange experiences have to offer.</p>

<p>“And that is exactly what is wrong with elite college admissions – you telegraph that readily available and age-appropriate activities aren’t good enough; the Harvard candidate has to be a prodigy, functioning at age 15 as if he were 30. So that’s why you get situations like the kid in Florida who flew off on his own to Baghdad – or the girl who plagiarized to write a novel. They think that’s what they need to do to impress.”</p>

<p>When it comes to Harvard, more than 10 times the # of applicants apply as it’s possible to admit, and at least 85% of the applications are very well qualified for admission. Space considerations are the only reason they are rejected. Virtually all of the students who get rejected are students whom most colleges in the country would eagerly accept.</p>

<p>So , I am curious about how you would make the decision about whom to admit and who not to admit from that kind of outstanding pool? </p>

<p>What Harvard and other colleges do is decide to admit students who either are incredibly outstanding in an already outstanding pool or who would add to the classes’ overall diversity and well roundedness. This means that people from underrepresented parts of the country and world, students from unusual religious, racial, political, sexual orientation and ethnic backgrounds, students with unusual ECs, etc. all would have an advantage. </p>

<p>But what would you do?</p>

<p>Meanwhile, the student whom I described did NOT apply to Harvard or any other similar college. There was every evidence that he went abroad as he did because that truly was what interested him. He loved French. he looked for an opportunity to spend the summer in France.</p>

<p>He applied to the Naval Academy, where he was accepted and now is happily attending. I met his mom at a friend’s house and I heard about her son’s summer experience as part of a general conversation about what our kids had done over the summer. She had no reason to lie to me. At the same dinner, I met her son, and talked with him about his experience. Again, neither had any reason to lie or embellish. </p>

<p>There actually are students whose idea of fun is to go abroad in the way that he did. There also are parents who’ll allow this because they know that their kids are mature enough to handle things like that.</p>

<p>My husband at age 15, travelled 1,000 miles from home to sell dictionaries. He lived in a rooming house with his 16-year-old cousin. His parents allowed him to do this because he was unusually mature. </p>

<p>When I first heard about this, I thought my husband’s parents were nuts to have allowed a teen to do something like this. Now that I’ve known my husband for 30 years, I can see why his parents allowed this. He was an unusually responsible teen who had already managed to meet the challenge of growing up in the inner city and being tops in his class in a very competitive high school without getting into gangs, fights, etc. He had more social intelligence and common sense than do most adults. During his summer away, he did nothing except work and go to church.</p>

<p>"It seems to me, reading between the lines, that you personally don’t value community service abroad very highly, maybe because you see that as a mark of privilege rather than true giving. Obviously, it is a waste of resources to spend $5000 to travel abroad when a person can do community service for free at home, and donate the same $5000 to charity. "</p>

<p>Not true at all. A problem that I have with many of the community service activities that students do abroad is that the activities are basically shams. They superficially look good on paper ("Went abroad. Did community service in a rural third world village), but in reality either the projects were shams (such as when students do “projects” that are nonexistant, signed off by their own relatives and family friends) or are inconsequential.</p>

<p>As I mentioned before, my own family inadvertently spent our own money to do a service trip in the Caribbean that sounded great on paper, but in actuality, we sat around for days doing absolutely nothing because the village didn’t want us there. It’s at the bottom of any CS that anyone in my family lists on resumes, etc. All of us have done service projects in our own communities that we accomplished much more plus helped organize and run.</p>

<p>Meanwhile, it is highly unlikely that a h.s. student would be able to exert the kind of leadership and have the kind of impact abroad that they could have at home. Why? It is very difficult to organize CS projects and much of being able to do so depends on knowing the local community well and being trusted by people in it. As people, for instance, in Peace Corps quickly learn, one just doesn’t move to a country and start telling people how to improve their lives. One has to get to know them, find out their needs, and then follow their lead after they trust you. This takes months, and isn’t something that one can do on a trip of a few weeks or even a summer.</p>

<p>Meanwhile, however, teens and adults with a strong interest in service and with good organizational skills and ideas are far more likely to create and organize a service program with impact by attempting this in their hometowns. Compared to doing something abroad, they would have more time to devote to the activity, would know more people who could help them, would be more familiar with the problems and resources in the local area, and would be more likely to be trusted by others who could help them and use their services.</p>

<p>Northstarmom, if I were an interviewer for an elite institution, I wouldn’t try to worry about how much the kid impressed ME - I’d want to draw out the kid on the interview enough so that I could write a good summary that sheds light on the kid’s personality. I’d assume that the school already has the resume and activities list, but my job as an interviewer would be to help the ad com get a sense of the human, interpersonal qualities of the student. If I perceived the kid as “passive” I’d see it as my job to help draw the kid out – maybe the student is shy but very compassionate, or has a deep appreciation for art. I would be frustrated if the interview seemed to run into a series of dead ends, but I certainly wouldn’t pass judgment on the quality of the experiences the student had based on their personality at the interview.</p>

<p>One thing that concerns me a little is your description of some kids of immigrants, who spent time in their home countries, as being passive - and your being dismissive of their experiences. I wonder if there is something of a cultural difference that is being overlooked. A young woman who seems passive to you may have spent spent time living in a country where women are expected to be reserved and modest – as would be the case with many Asian and Muslim cultures. The very qualities you look for as an expression of initiative and leadership may have been the sort of things that would have caused offense had she tried them while living in her grandparents’ home. </p>

<p>Maybe you are thinking: well, then the student isn’t Harvard material. I don’t know – it makes me think, I’m glad my kids aren’t going to Harvard. Not because my kids are passive – on the contrary, they are bold & brassy type – but because I think there ought to be room for diversity among personality types and cultural influences on a college campus. </p>

<p>If a kid has nothing special to offer Harvard, then of course that kid probably won’t get in. But there are many kids who have great minds or great talents, but aren’t particularly showy or articulate. </p>

<p>My daughter’s essay about life abroad wasn’t about what she accomplished or how much she learned – it was about how difficult and frustrating it was for her to overcome the language barrier. It wasn’t a self-pitying essay – my daughter has a knack for self-depracatory humor – but anyone reading it would realize how incredibly difficult it can be to be a teenager alone in a place where another language is spoken. </p>

<p>I don’t think she could have explained that at an interview. “What did you do in Russia” would have brought forth a recitation or description, but it woudn’t have gotten to the emotional content. So I am pretty sure that her interview at Barnard wasn’t focused very much on what my daughter did in the past, but what she wanted to do in the future - what her interests are, what she hopes to get out of college. Now my daughter is a very sociable kid who is an easy and avid conversationalist (truthfully, it’s hard sometimes to get a word in edgewise) – but the point is - with some kids you have to dig a little harder. </p>

<p>If I was involved in college admissions, I would really value those interviewers who had a knack for getting shy kids to open up, to reveal the things about themselves that aren’t going to find their way onto an activity sheet or resume. And in the end - if I were in charge of admissions for an elite college - then I would admit a lot of kids who were strong, amazing leaders, but I would also admit some poets and philosophers and mathemeticians whose social skills were kind of weak, knowing that they had something to offer as well. And if I could know what lay in the heart of the poet because of something hidden that came out in an interview – I’d consider myself very lucky.</p>

<p>I do want to say that I am sure that you are a very good interviewer – it’s hard to get that across when you share anecdotes on a public board – so I respect what you do and am NOT trying to claim I could do it better. I’m just trying to answer the question you asked from my own perspective.</p>

<p>

If you were a student and told me that story, my question would be: “What did you do then?” “How did you filll the time?” </p>

<p>I wouldn’t care about whether you got any real community service done, but I wouldn’t think too highly of a student who complained about “doing absolutely nothing” and of the whole thing being a waste of time. I’d wonder why that kid couldn’t find something else to do. If the kid said that they had ended up reading, or organizing soccer games with the other participants… I’d think, well, at least the kid made the best of the circumstances If the kid said that he & another kid had decided to go walking around the village and that they ended up playing tag with the little kids who lived there – then I’d be a little more impressed - I’d think: at least this kid made an attempt to get to know the people.</p>

<p>I still think you are focusing too much on the “community service” part and not enough on the cultural exchange / international living experience part. Also, I don’t know how long the trip you scheduled was, but keep in mind that a one-week trip is a very different thing than a four-week trip – and four weeks is very different than four months. When you see a kid who has been on a longer trip, no matter how it was packaged, you have to realize that a big part of the challenge is adjusting to the new way of life and language. Immersion is a different experience than tourism.</p>

<p>I want to add that my S’s Harvard interview had nothing to do with impressing the alumna who conducted the interview. There was absolutely no gotcha feeling to it, no sense that this was a make or break deal. It was quite low-key. They–and I really mean they–talked about his academic interests, housing, the social scene at Harvard and his Rubik’s cube. The interviewer gave him tips about how to keep a good balance between work and play. </p>

<p>The MIT interview was pretty much along the same lines. In fact the interviewer seems to have spent some time discussing the pros and cons of dorms and fraternities. What my S did during the summer never came up.</p>