Monetary, intellectual, social value of HS summer experiences

Northstarmom · June 25, 2006, 8:05pm

“And I guess everyone missed MY point (or maybe I am just being obtuse, which is possible), which was do you think the menial service or packaged travel to another country is intrinsically more valuable than the lawn mower or the bologna sandwich maker? Throw out the adcoms, if you will, for a moment.”

Throwing out the adcoms: I think that for middle and high income students, the lawn mower/bologna sandwich maker jobs have more value because such jobs would truly expose them to issues and people whom they normally would not have insider knowledge about. I think that there’s great value in having hands-on knowledge of how the “other half” of the world lives.

I also think that since probably the majority of those students are college bound, they’re very likely to be able to get abroad anyway in college due to the proliferation of college study abroad programs that would allow them to spend an entire semester abroad.

Meanwhile, the packaged tours would have the most intrinsic value to low income kids from nonimmigrant families who may not otherwise even have the opportunity to leave their own neighborhoods. The tours also would be of great value to kids who come from families that are overprotective. When I lived in Detroit, for instance, I met many low income teens and even elderly adults who had never been to Canada even though one could get to Canada by a 10 min. ride from downtown Detroit. This included even some middle class people who appeared to be scared to venture to another country.

Such students also aren’t as likely to go abroad while in college or even to go abroad at all in their lives. Going abroad on a packaged tour while in h.s. could open their minds to various possibilities that they would not consider otherwise, and could get them on the path toward a sophistication about the world that would help them get employed and stay employable.

meowmom · June 27, 2006, 9:17am

I just found this thread so I hope I’m not restating a question that has already been raised. D will have participated in 5 construction/medical mission trips (3 international, 2 local) by the end of her senior year, most of which required some ongoing fund-raising, team-building activities in addition to some financial contribution from our family. She has done quite a bit of other community service, summer job, etc. as well. The trips have been a meaningful part of her high school experience but not necessarily the single thing she would choose to highlight in her common app essay. Could this activity actually seen as a negative element in her application? What can she do to highlight it in a positive way?

marite · June 27, 2006, 9:29am

Meowmom:

Your D sounds like a very committed young woman. Kudoes to her. She should be commended rather than rendered fearful of appearing affluent (heaven forfend!).

She should just list what she did, with descriptions such as you provided above. She may choose to write her essays on her experiences, or not. It depends on her. If she writes on her experiences, it is better to home in on a vignette that captures a specific aspect of her experiences rather than providing a laundry list of all that was involved.

roshke · June 27, 2006, 2:10pm

meowmom, You have absolutely nothing to worry about here. The one thing I agree with is that if someone did such a community service trip in a vacuum, or with no other interesting things to say about themselves, then it’s not likely to be much of a factor. From what you are describing, that is far from the case here. More than anything, admissions reps are looking for passion, leadership potential(the fundraising aspect you mention points to this) and perseverance(showing a sustained interest in something over time), and your child seems to demonstrate just that!

calmom · June 27, 2006, 3:31pm

Meowmom, I don’t care what anyone says – these things can only look good, assuming that your daughter is articulate and expresses herself well. If she wants to mention those missions as part of a personal statement or in answer to a question such as which of her EC’s was most meaningful for her (which I think is a common app question) – I think it looks great.

If she wants to use something from her experience as the subject of her main essay (such as in response to an “experience that changed your life”, “challenge you faced”, or “issue of importance to you” prompt) – the only advice I can give is, she should avoid writing something that seems trite. The best thing is to focus on a small experience or incident rather the bigger theme – rather than describe the whole trip in general terms, focus on some specific incident and tell a story that carries a message. It makes it more interesting and it sounds more genuine that way.

Another approach is to write about something that conveys a message entirely different than the “do-gooder” type message you might anticipate from a kid on a charitable mission. For example, she might write about a humorous or unexpected incident that took place that has nothing to do with the purpose of the mission but reflects something about the local culture. My daughter wrote in a very direct way about the language barrier and loneliness she felt as a foreign exchange student: no sugar-coating there.

The point is, that the essay avoids being predictable or coming off as self-righteous.

If you do read through the posts here, you will see that those who expressed reservations about these trips fell among these camps:

Skeptical of the money spent - believing that these trips are just a way that rich parents ‘buy’ impressive EC credentials for their kids;
Skeptical of the mission itself - assuming that the trips are nothing more than vacations to exotic locales where students do little of real value; and/or
Disdain for the students who go on the missions, interpreting their statements as trite or vacuous. (“What did you learn?” “That people are the same all over the world.”)

I personally think these attitudes tell more about the biases of the people expressing them than the kids who go on the trips – but the point is that your daughter’s essay should avoid feeding those sorts of prejudices. So the point is to make it real.

A good essay should always show, not tell. I’ve probably said this a million times, but if you buy only one book for your daughter, make it Harry Bauld’s “On Writing the College Application Essay”. It is a short, funny, easy read that will tell her everything she knows about how to make a story come alive and avoid the hackneyed themes.

Finally: you should be proud or your daughter and her clear level of social commitment. If there is a college that doesn’t want kids like her because its ad com has disdain for these missions – then your daughter doesn’t want to go to that college anyway. The chief naysayer in this thread is an alumna interviewer for Harvard, and her comments basically confirm the impressions I have always had about Harvard. There are colleges that boast on their web sites about how many of their graduates go on to join the Peace Corps; Harvard isn’t one of them. Your daughter is going to be happiest at the sort of college that highly values the sorts of things she has done, and I can guarantee you that there are many, many colleges that will. Don’t let anyone tell you or your daughter that her assets and accomplishments are “negatives”.

A little off topic (I was Googling trying to find something else but ran across this) – but you might find this critique of the lack of commitment of Ivy League colleges to community service interesting:
<a href=“http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2001/0201.green.html[/url]”>http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2001/0201.green.html</a>

meowmom · June 27, 2006, 5:58pm

Thanks for all the advice and kind words, everyone. Of course I know what I would write about if it were my application! I will relay some of what you have all recommended to my D when she starts her essays (which I hope is SOON).

I am proud of her interest in public service as well as that of her siblings, both of whom have been on similar trips. One, now a junior at an “elite” LAC, described her experience as “life-changing” and is now considering a career in medicine or international health. In fact, she returned to the same place for this entire summer, funded by a grant from her college. The other sibling, compelled by a conservative sense of justice, is planning a career in law. Interestingly, she is a recent Harvard grad.

So this is our final experience with college admissions and the most unpredictable, from the parental point of view. Thanks to other comments on this board, I have just ordered the Bault book from the library and have started reading Hernandez’ “A is for Admissions.” That was an eye-opener too - and I only started reading it yesterday! But I digress. Thanks again to all for opening my eyes to the many ways words and experiences can be interpreted. It has been very helpful.

marite · June 27, 2006, 6:07pm

Calmom:

I have to take exception to your characterization of Harvard. In fact, if anything, I think NSM overemphasized the importance of community service as a factor in Harvard admissions. She certainly did not give the impression that Harvard does not care for community service. What on earth gave you the idea?

I suggest you check out the Phillips Brooks House.

Below is a list of some of its activities–some of which are going on right now; PBH is active year-round.

<pre><code>* Aiming for Higher Emerson Academic Development (AHEAD)

Alternative Spring Breaks (ASB)
Best Buddies
Boston Refugee Youth Enrichment Program (BRYE)
BRYE Extension
BRYE 1-2-1
BRYE Teen
BRYE Tutoring
Cerebral Palsy Friends (CPF)
CHANCE
Chinatown Commitee
Chinatown Afterschool (opens in a new window)
Chinatown Big Sib
Chinatown Citizenship
Chinatown ESL
Chinatown Teen
CIVICS
Committee on Deaf Awareness (CODA)
Committee on the Blind (COB)
Dearborn Afterschool Program
Elderly Affairs Committee
Harvard Environmental Action Committee
Environmental Education (EnviroEd)
ExperiMentors
Franklin Afterschool Enrichment (FASE)
Franklin Teen Mentoring
Fresh Pond Enrichment Program (FPEP)
Habitat for Humanity (opens in new window)
Harvard and Radcliffe Musical Outreach to Neighborhood Youth (HARMONY)
Harvard Emergency Medical Services Program (HEMS)
Harvard Emerging Literacy Project (HELP)
Harvard Progressive Advocacy Group (HPAG)
Harvard Square Homeless Shelter
Housing Opportunities Program (HOP)
Keylatch Afterschool Program
Keylatch Mentor
LEADERS!
Legal Committee
Mather School Tutoring (MST)
Mission Hill Committee
Mission Hill After-School Program (MHASP)
Mission Mentor (formerly Project Umoja)
Partners for Empowering Neighborhoods (PEN)
Pets as Therapy
Prison Education Program
Houston House
Suffolk County House of Correction
Youth Prison Tutoring Programs
Progressive Student Labor Movement (PSLM)
Project Literacy
Refugee Youth Term Enrichment (RYTE)
S.A.B.E.S.
Small Claims Advisory Service (SCAS)
South Boston Outreach Big Sibling
Strong Women, Strong Girls
VISIONS
Wilderness 1-2-1
Youth Recreation Program
</code></pre>

calmom · June 27, 2006, 6:21pm

LOL!! I can’t tell you how many wonderful essays I wrote in my head that were absolutely nothing at all like the ones my kids came up with. My kids delighted and suprised me - though my son managed to also take me out of my comfort zone with his expository excursion into the seamier side of Pattaya Beach (“Sex Capital of the World”).

I think in hindsight, my imagined essays would have been exactly the sort of hackneyed variation on a theme we are trying to avoid… so it’s best that I kept them to myself.

–
Marite: I am PM’ing you re your comments.

anxiousmom · June 27, 2006, 6:24pm

There are packaged tours and packaged tours. (Anyone care for the “9 countries in 10 days” type that are common with school groups? Ughhh. Back to the very OP! My family has traveled, on a shoestring, to Europe (backpacking, staying in hostels, and visiting friends and relatives) and around the states (camping / driving / national parks and friends.) Very valuable. DS now has two jobs this summer, one bagging groceries and one teaching tennis. Oh, yesssss baby! Very valuable. Working has done something for my son that no amount of traveling could do. (And the reverse is probably also true!!!) No matter how mundane, working has given my son a sense of purpose; it’s taught him that, in the real world, you get out of bed for that 7 a.m. shift even if you don’t want to; that you smile at customers and make eye-contact and exchange words, even if you are uncomfortable doing so; that $50 means so much more, if you earned it by working two long, hot shifts bagging groceries, or sweating on the courts with less-than-enthusiastic tennis students; that leisure-time is more rewarding if it comes after an 8-hour shift, as opposed to after sleeping 12-hours and playing computer games for another 8; that good bosses are good communicators and have clear expectations; that doing well in school does not give you any special privileges in the workplace; that it takes a long time to earn $50 and working is HARD and it would be nice to earn more per hour than all the many, many people that work at the grocery store… oh, man, I could go on forever. Working has really opened my son’s eyes. :)

Northstarmom · June 27, 2006, 6:28pm

‘The chief naysayer in this thread is an alumna interviewer for Harvard, and her comments basically confirm the impressions I have always had about Harvard. There are colleges that boast on their web sites about how many of their graduates go on to join the Peace Corps; Harvard isn’t one of them.’

Harvard’s Phillips Brooks House is one of the most popular campus ECs, and is totally run by students – who do community service, including creating and running major projects – because they love CS, not because they get course credit or scholarships for doing CS (as is the case at many universities).

The Peace Corps also was started by John Kennedy-- a Harvard grad who in starting the Corps was being very true to Harvard ideals, and a Harvard student organization helped inspire the Peace Corps.

This is from the Phillips Brooks House site, and also indicates why when it comes to community service, what Harvard values in applicants are students who demonstrate the leadership and motivation to create and organize projects. That’s what students do at Harvard – for fun.

"PBHA is a student-run, staff supported public service/social action organization at Harvard College providing a variety of services to the Greater Boston community. PBHA is often called “the best course at Harvard.” For more than a century PBHA programs have provided vital experiences for generations of leaders in service and activism, simultaneously developing real, meaningful community partnerships.

The mission of PBHA is a joint one of social service and social action. We address this mission in myriad ways, from intensive summer youth programs to transitional assistance for the homeless. Over 1,800 volunteers participate in 78 PBHA programs each year. With professional staff support and advice, PBHA is a unique manifestation of college students’ idealism, energy, and initiative.

Founded in 1900 as the Social Service Committee of Phillips Brooks House, and renamed PBHA in 1904, the organization has served the community in diverse ways over time from its origins as a religiously oriented settlement house. Though it ceased to be a religious organization in 1920, PBHA still maintains its commitment to social service and activism in Boston and Cambridge. Often, the creativity of PBHA students has provided innovative models to the human service community. PBHA volunteers were pioneers in working with the mentally ill and incarcerated in the 1950s, developed a volunteer teacher’s project in Africa that was studied in the creation of the Peace Corps, and continue to innovate today in the relationship between university students and public housing communities.

Alumni of Phillips Brooks House have gone on to be leaders in their respective fields, and include figures as diverse as Justice David Souter, ACLU founder Roger Baldwin, Dr. Robert Coles, President Franklin Delano Roosevelt, and countless other leaders for social change in communities across America. "

calmom · June 27, 2006, 7:28pm

Actually, the Peace Corps was the brainchild of Sargent Shriver, a Yale grad, and JFK’s brother in law (and Maria Shriver’s father), who was the first director of the Peace Corps and also founded Job Corps, VISTA, Upward Bound, Foster Grandparents, Legal Services for the Poor and Head Start.

But it’s like I said before, some people do all the work, while others get all the credit. See: <a href=“MatchAwards”>MatchAwards;

roshke · June 27, 2006, 7:42pm

I’ve mentioned this before, but S went on one of these trips a couple of years ago and had an unbelievable, life affecting experience. All of the kids on the trip were dynamic and involved types; most of them also participated in service and leadership activities all year round. S is still in touch with all of them. I didn’t mention this earlier in the thread, but just as an example and to let people know that this was no black mark against the participants when it came to elite college admissions, out of the 16 in S’s group, one person is going to Harvard, one to Princeton, one Penn and one Northwestern! Did the trip get them into these schools? Of course not! Did it keep them out? No again! Was it a positive in the full context of a resume filled with leadership experiences , community service, and examples of a willingness to try new things and new experiences? I think very likely, yes.

Calmom’s advice regarding the essay, as well as some of the perils and pitfalls of writing about this topic is important to know, and right on target from what I’ve heard in information sessions, admissions officers, etc.

Northstarmom · June 27, 2006, 8:11pm

"Actually, the Peace Corps was the brainchild of Sargent Shriver, a Yale grad, and JFK’s brother in law (and Maria Shriver’s father), who was the first director of the Peace Corps and also founded Job Corps, VISTA, Upward Bound, Foster Grandparents, Legal Services for the Poor and Head Start.

But it’s like I said before, some people do all the work, while others get all the credit. "

If JFK hadn’t been president, there would not have been a Peace Corps. It takes more than a great idea to create a national institution. JFK’s interest and support is what made the Peace Corps a reality. JFK also listened to and hired Sargent Shriver, which also made the Peace Corps a reality.

All of this – including the fact that Shriver went to Yale – is evidence of why colleges like HPYS want students whose CS (and other ECs) have had impact indicating leadership, creativity organizational skills, etc. Just racking up hours isn’t enough.

Another example of a community service program that was started by Harvard law grads is City Year, which led to Americorps. Here’s a description: “City Year was founded in 1988 by Michael Brown and Alan Khazei, then-roommates at Harvard Law School, who felt strongly that young people in service could be a powerful resource for addressing our nation’s most pressing issues. Over the years, City Year has been built on the belief that one person can make a difference, and with the vision that one day service will be a common expectation - and a real opportunity - for citizens all around the world.” Khazei and Brown also graduated from Harvard College.

calmom · June 27, 2006, 8:44pm

Shriver started out in high school as a participant in a summer program in Germany (sponsored by Experiment in International Living, <a href=“http://www.experiment.org/programs.htm[/url]”>http://www.experiment.org/programs.htm</a> ) - exactly the sort of program that you labeled as “wastes” in your post #3. Shriver maintained his association with Experiment in International Living, making two successive trips while he was in college and again in law school. His experience illustrates exactly the value that these sorts of “packaged” trips can have for a young person. Contrary to the opinions you express, had Shriver, who came from a poor family, stayed home and worked while he was in high school or confined his community service to his local community, his life may have taken a very different turn.

Source: <a href=“http://www.jfklibrary.org/Historical+Resources/Biographies+and+Profiles/Biographies/bio_shriver.htm[/url]”>http://www.jfklibrary.org/Historical+Resources/Biographies+and+Profiles/Biographies/bio_shriver.htm</a>

marite · June 27, 2006, 8:46pm

Okay I count 3 Ivies so far:
Harvard :JFK (who did not creat the Peace Corps but certainly inspired young Americans to ask what they could do for their country), Khazei & Brown (City Year).
Yale, Sargent Shriver (Peace Corps)
Princeton: Wendy Kopp (Teach for America).

Who said Ivies don’t value community service?

Northstarmom · June 27, 2006, 8:55pm

This is experiment in international living"
“Live for one to four weeks as a member of a host family in your choice of country. Read about one woman’s memorable homestay experience in Switzerland. You will be fascinated to learn about another way of life. More information.”

<ol>
<li>I haven’t labeled such programs as “wastes” except when it comes to people paying big bucks to send students on such programs for the sole purpose of getting the students admitted to top colleges. Such programs do NOT open doors at top colleges though they may be very impressive to lower ranked colleges. </li>
<li>I would bet money that when Shriver participated, he participated out of genuine interest, not because an affluent parent was trying to buy his way into a top college by paying big bucks for him to do “service.”
When Shriver was young, very few people participated in study abroad programs while they were in h.s. or college, so he already was ahead of the curve by doing so. In addition, having stellar and unusual ECs wasn’t as important then to elite college admissions as it is now. </li>
</ol>

Since it was far easier to get into HPYS back then and since such admissions back then were based a great deal on having the right (i.e. white and wealthy) family background and going to the right (i.e. expensive and exclusive) prep schools, I am sure that he wasn’t doing what many students do now: Go abroad to do a packaged CS program in order to look good to colleges even if the students have no interest.

Meanwhile, I have never called the programs a waste. I

I keep saying that expensive packaged tours abroad and packaged service programs abroad (the type in which the main criterion for admission is being able to pay the high fees) are wastes if the reason to do those is to get into top colleges. However, if a student does such a program out of interest, to have an interesting summer, to hang out with like minded peers, etc., the program can be very beneficial. It’s just a waste of money if the student does such a program to get into top colleges because top colleges aren’t impressed by packaged tours or service programs. A student is much more likely to impress a top college by creating a service program at home – even a modest service program – than by getting one’s parent to pay big bucks for a student for a packaged program.

N.B. By “packaged programs,” I am not referring to programs like Rotary Club’s exchange programs, which are very difficult to gain acceptance to and also require the students to spend a significant amount of time immersed in another culture.

Northstarmom · June 27, 2006, 8:58pm

“Okay I count 3 Ivies so far:
Harvard :JFK (who did not creat the Peace Corps but certainly inspired young Americans to ask what they could do for their country), Khazei & Brown (City Year).
Yale, Sargent Shriver (Peace Corps)
Princeton: Wendy Kopp (Teach for America).”

More evidence that Ivies not only value CS, but also value people with the vision, leadership and organizational skills to start CS programs with impact. Such people are very different than are people who simply rack up the hours or do whatever CS is convenient and easy.

calmom · June 27, 2006, 9:17pm

I said, “If there is a college that doesn’t want kids like her because its ad com has disdain for these missions – then your daughter doesn’t want to go to that college anyway.” Northstarmom said, “I personally think that those pricey European tours and community service projects are wastes of money” and “I’d be far more impressed by students who spent the summer working doing in fast food jobs” and “A teen who volunteered at a community center in a project that they designed themself would be far more impressive than a teen whose parents enrolled them in a packaged community service project in a distant country.”

I have no clue what Harvard values, but NSM keeps insisting that it doesn’t value “packaged” community service projects in distant countries. So apparently, based on what she says, Harvard only values “community service” which meets its particular standards, which as far as I can glean must be something that the student “designed themself” because apparently volunteering to do the work for a project that is someone else’s idea is not good enough for Harvard. That’s what she says; I’m just relying on that.

My own kids never spent 5 minutes in high school worrying about doing what they thought would look good on a resume, instead simply following their own individual inclinations. Since leaving college, my son has initiated, led and organized community grassroots projects and is pretty good at it, but he worked his way up from the trenches, learning from the experience of those who went before him, rather than thinking than having the audacity in high school to think he would be able to do a better job at providing housing for poor people than Habitat for Humanity, or at distributing food to the homeless than St. Anthony’s. From what I can gather from NSM, Harvard wouldn’t have taken a second look at my son, because he didn’t wear his “leadership” on his sleeve, and wasn’t much of a talker as a teenager. Fortunately, he didn’t waste his time or money applying, as there are plenty of colleges that were very glad to have him, even if the trip to Thailand is the most interesting thing he had to offer at age 17.

The question that started this thread was whether a “kid spending a month in Thailand on a community service project” was “worth the money” or whether it was just “spoiled kids trying to have interesting experiences”. The Harvard interviewer seems to think it is “spoiled kids”.

Providing a brag sheet of “community service” projects that students have been involved with doesn’t address the fact that there is a competitive hierarchy being set up that seems to be value leading over learning. It isn’t about the brag sheet.

marite · June 27, 2006, 9:28pm

NSM:

Now, I have to disagree with you and side with Calmom. A 17-year old cannot be expected to have the leadership skills or the vision of an older person. Consider the reasoning behind Warren Buffett’s decision to give his money to existing foundations: He felt that his money would be better used by a foundation that already had a structure in place rather than by his creating a brand new one. It is far more efficient for a teen to join in something that already exists rather than to reinvent the wheel, even if that is less glamorous. By the way, Warren Buffett’s decision has been characterized as “egoless.” I agree. A lot of these leadership activities are all about me, me, me.

calmom · June 27, 2006, 9:38pm

NSM, Allmusic didn’t start this thread about kids being sent abroad to do things in which they had no interest. She gave examples of two kids, one going on a tour of Europe, the other for community service in Thailand, and didn’t say a word about their motivations. She then said, “I would never spend that kind of money for a teen tour, even if we had it, and even if I think it might be fun. Doesn’t seem like a valuable way to spend money” and asked why parents would subsidize this.

Every post you have made seems premised on the assumption that these programs are only for rich kids whose parents are making them go. My experience way-back-when as a lurker on internet bulletin boards for the kids wanting to go on these things was quite the opposite: most of the kids were desparately trying to look for ways to convince their worried parents to allow them to go. At most, the “looks good on college resume” and “helps get scholarships” theories were simply rationalizations that kids offered up to parents trying to win them over, since “I really want to get away from here” isn’t all that persuasive to most parents. (Me being the exception, apparently - my son’s travel started with him announcing, “I want to leave the country”, to which I responded, “When?”).

I’ve spent enough time around the kids who go on these things to know that they tend NOT to have overcontrolling or college-admission-obsessed parents. In fact, their parents tend to have very minimal involvement in the process. The most common concern that parents have with these sorts of projects is the fact that they tend to take kids away from their studies and othera activities.

Monetary, intellectual, social value of HS summer experiences

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