Most intellectual schools (i.e. Where to Learn for Learning's Sake?)

College Search & Lists
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<p>I, and I assume many others, are a little afraid of certain liberal art colleges due to their political and social extremist liberal views. I’m not necessarily referring to a college with average amount of Democratic students, but rather the kind of college with environmental, hippie, and socialist inclinations (in Microsoft Word, “mental” in environmental was highlighted). Personally, a college that ignores, even endorses, excessive drug use seems anti-intelligent, even if this college is listed under “most-intellectual” lists. Maybe it’s just me, but I almost expect a closed-minded liberalness at specific colleges. Examples of these which come to mind include Amherst, Reed, Swarthmore, and many other top tier liberal arts colleges (I’m not saying any of the colleges listed are what I describe, I simply am voicing my generalizations). Personally, this is hard for me, especially that Reed in right in my neighborhood. Coming from someone who doesn’t agree with many fiscal liberal views and some social (including the blatant acceptance of drug use), I would love it if someone could debunk my fears of liberal liberal arts colleges! </p>

<p>I understand this question may have been previously asked. If so, a redirection to another conversation would be ideal!</p>

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<p>I understand your concern, theorygeek.
At the schools I am most familiar with, the University of Chicago, Dartmouth and Princeton, I would say that most students are broadly “liberal”, but you would have no problems voicing other opinions. Be ready to argue your arguments, but I don’t think you would be immediately “outed” as you would be at Swarthmore, Grinnell, Wesleyan, Oberlin etc. Not much discussion there. The downsides at Chicago, Dartmouth and Princeton are that these are not particularly political places.
Someone said that Princeton students want to run the world, not change it. I’d say that was about right.</p>

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<p>How do you define “intellectual”?</p>

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<p>tg, as a high school sophomore, are you afraid that at an LAC you might become environmentally inclined, or pick up some socialist ideas (like free public education and road building, police and fire protection), or that you might try drugs? Have you ever heard of a school that endorses excessive drug use? Just what are your fears?</p>

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<p>Well obviously our political and social opinions clash. Vossron, all I am saying is I don’t know how well I’d get along with a school teaming with left-learning students. I would never say that I “reject” any specific ideology (hence my avoidance of strictly conservative schools.) Of the liberal-socialists I’ve met, I don’t really click with any of them. Not to say I never will meet a liberal or socialist that I become friends with, but I don’t want to take my chances for four years at a school entirely based upon liberalism.</p>

<p>On drug use, I don’t think it’s my thing. No I have not heard of schools endorsing drug use, but trust me, living in the Pacific Northwest, stories of wild stuff going on at Evergreen or Reed do not interest me. I have no problem with other people using drugs, but I wouldn’t want to attend a school with an overall pressure to use illegal drugs. My fears are either ignoring schools due to the common political stance, or obsessing over schools that may not be so open-minded to my opinions.</p>

<p>danas, thank you so much for your response. Unfortunately, not everyone can apply to UChicago, Dartmouth, and Princeton!</p>

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<p>Pretty good example of why to avoid the Reeds and Swarthmores of the world, aren’t you, vossron? A little intolerance maybe?
With a little research, I think it is possible to find schools that aren’t looking to put people in a political straight jacket, and that aren’t as reachy as Chicago and Princeton. Good luck!</p>

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<p>It can be exasperating to attend a college in which the prevailing opinion is antithetical to your views. Being one of the radical leftists you mentioned, I’m quite afraid of extremist conservative schools such as Princeton and Duke due to their political outlook. However, my aversion to such schools isn’t rooted in a fear that my thinking will become influenced by corporatist ideals or blind greed, as Vossron suggests; rather, it’s because of a fundamental divergence of opinion between me and the student body. Ultimately, choosing a school should be largely predicated upon how conducive you feel its atmosphere is to your welfare and education. Some colleges may take a liberal stance and allow their students a wide range of freedom as long as their actions don’t imperil the common good; others may adopt a more authoritarian posture and have strict rules governing student behavior. It’s up to you to decide which environment you feel more comfortable in. Since there’s a fair amount of truth in most generalizations about schools, your apprehension is well-founded. Of course, you won’t be mugged by someone at Reed and be forced to help the poor, smoke pot, and protect the environment. Moreover, the professors and students will be open-minded to an extent; nonetheless, the overall temperament of the school can be stifling to someone of a different political inclination.</p>

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<p>“…nonetheless, the overall temperament of the school can be stifling to someone of a different political inclination.”</p>

<p>Unless they’re really attending college to learn; defending a minority position is a quintessential educational exercise, and one would be amazed at how one grows intellectually from the process.</p>

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<p>You seem to have a very narrow-minded view of what constitutes learning; in my opinion, one’s learning is primarily facilitated by one’s desire to investigate issues and is augmented by the ability to discuss the results of such inquiry with others. Certainly, an echo chamber is not an ideal setting for academic enrichment. However, a basic ideological framework within which spirited debate could exist would be best. Thus, I don’t believe I’d grow intellectually from the experience of having a fascist lecture me on the virtues of a militaristic police state, a bigot tell me why certain races are inferior, or a religious zealot tell me why I must avoid eating shellfish. I have already decided that such positions are fundamentally flawed; this mindset might be analogous for many rightists, too, and is a perfectly reasonable one. On the other hand, I welcome a philosophical conversation comparing the relative benefits of communism, anarcho-syndicalism, socialism, etc. Maybe you’d have found living in the Deep South during the 1800s to be a “quintessential educational exercise”; maybe you’d revel in the opportunity to argue against slave-owners. Maybe you yearn to travel to Myanmar to “really learn” about different viewpoints. Personally, I wouldn’t like such environments.</p>

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<p>Though I find the conversations on this topic interesting, I want to reiterate my question, unless it was answered in a previous post. How liberal are these colleges? For that matter, how conservative is a university like Duke or Princeton? Would attending a college like Reed as a conservative affect my social life?
I believe no matter what college one attends, they’re likely to find many interesting discussions on political matters, what I want to know is how open-minded and accepting are many of these institutions?</p>

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<p>I would say that Reed is one of the most liberal, and that lifestyle would affect social life more than would political persuasion.</p>

<p>tg raises a good point: </p>

<p>Is there a difference of open-mindedness and tolerance at liberal vs. conservative institutions generally, and at the named institutions in particular?</p>

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<p>Some of the posts in this thread are scary. Describing Princeton and Duke as “extremist conservative schools” is so far off the mark it boggles the mind. Furthermore, some of the examples drawn, eg, “having a fascist lecture me on the virtues of a militaristic police state, a bigot tell me why certain races are inferior, or a religious zealot tell me why I must avoid eating shellfish” are such poppycock. Political opinion, at least among students at the great, great majority of American colleges, is thankfully a lot more tolerant of differing political opinions and much less prone and receptive to such grossly overstated caricatures.</p>

<p>Last year a CC student did a Facebook study on the political opinions of students at many ranked highly ranked colleges. Scanning the data below which shows how the student respondents self-identified, I think one can conclude that certain campuses and their students may lean one way or the other, but certainly not dominant political ideology that manifests itself in overbearing, goose-stepping way. In fact, all have a diverse universe of political opinion and I would posit that the intellectual conditions at any of these schools are pretty darn tolerant. </p>

<p>Finally, I would contrast this with the overwhelming amounts of data that demonstrate the political leanings of American faculty. I think it is clear that college students as a group are a heckuva lot more diverse in their political opinions than the professors that “teach” them. </p>

<p>Student respondents on Facebook who identified themselves by political ideology </p>

<p>Very Liberal , Liberal , Moderate , Conservative , Very Conservative , College</p>

<p>13% , 44% , 36% , 8% , 0% , Harvard
9% , 40% , 37% , 12% , 2% , Princeton
13% , 44% , 33% , 7% , 2% , Yale
10% , 38% , 45% , 8% , 0% , MIT
12% , 46% , 34% , 7% , 0% , Stanford
13% , 35% , 43% , 9% , 0% , Cal Tech
10% , 41% , 37% , 10% , 2% , U Penn
15% , 44% , 34% , 5% , 2% , Columbia
9% , 37% , 39% , 13% , 2% , Duke
15% , 36% , 40% , 6% , 2% , U Chicago
11% , 39% , 36% , 11% , 2% , Dartmouth
10% , 46% , 35% , 8% , 0% , Northwestern
10% , 44% , 37% , 8% , 2% , Wash U StL
9% , 40% , 38% , 11% , 2% , Cornell
9% , 37% , 40% , 12% , 2% , J Hopkins
15% , 48% , 33% , 4% , 0% , Brown
9% , 34% , 42% , 13% , 2% , Rice
10% , 41% , 39% , 10% , 0% , Emory
6% , 27% , 40% , 25% , 2% , Vanderbilt
4% , 26% , 40% , 28% , 2% , Notre Dame</p>

<p>Compared with the political ideology of the faculty:</p>

<p>Political Orientation of College Faculties </p>

<p>9.4% , Extremely Liberal
34.7% , Liberal
18.1% , Slightly Liberal
18.0% , Middle of the Road
10.5% , Slighty Conservative
8.0% , Conservative
1.2% , Very Conservative</p>

<p>Voting Affiliation of College Faculties </p>

<p>32.4% , Strong Democrat
18.6% , Weak Democrat
19.8% , Independent-Democrat
8.5% , Independent
7.0% , Independent-Republican
8.7% , Weak Republican
5.0% , Strong Republican</p>

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<p>“I think it is clear that college students as a group are a heckuva lot more diverse in their political opinions than the professors that “teach” them.”</p>

<p>Thanks, hawkette, for posting this. While every college student must be a college student somewhere, college faculty self-select for this profession, which begs the question: why are faculty liberal? Do we know, or do we speculate?</p>

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<p>IMHO, knowledge breed liberalism. Ergo, faculty and journalists which as a group have access to more informtion are more liberal. Plus nobody goes into these professions for the money. Rank the best school systems in the country and they correlate to progressive voting records. ( Mass, NY, Calif, Minn) the opposite is also true. see Miss, SC, Alabama. I know this will be decried as elitist but it is just common sense.</p>

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<p>vossron,
Some, including me, would contend that academia is a “club.” In order to join, and particularly in order to rise, one benefits from thinking a certain way-the liberal way. In higher education, high profile, highly regarded conservatives are an oxymoron. </p>

<p>The college industry is essentially an intellectual oligopoly that tilts heavily to the left and, barring some massive public scandal involving the liberal elite colleges, it is hard to see how this will change. Pragmatists (including conservatives) can see this and figure why bother, I’m much better off going into business (or some other field) where what you do is far more important and relevant than how you think politically. </p>

<p>How do colleges correct for this? First, they have to want to. I would expect most higher education apologists to deny the existence of a problem. Second, create an intellectual environment that is respectful of differing opinions, in much the same mold as colleges have been selling the whole diversity concept. Third, promote non-liberal thinkers to positions of prominence within academia and actively recruit top non-liberal thinkers/doers into more than adjunct/post-career faculty positions. And don’t do this in the insulting manner of the University of Colorado as in its plans to hire a “Professor of Conservative Thought” as if this person is from the zoo or someplace. Fourth, do more to provide campus support or events that are at odds with the prevailing liberal orthodoxy (eg, ROTC, pro-Israel speakers, etc) and allow the students to choose whether to support these organizations/events or not. </p>

<p>My guess is that the net result of these (and other) suggestions is that the liberal academics would lose control of the conversation and that a very sloppy, sometimes very vocal, debate would ensue. It is the control issue that I would expect college liberals to fight against as they have dominated (and restricted) the college conversations for decades. Thus, I would expect few of them to agree to any of these steps. </p>

<p>By contrast, I would expect the vast majority of students (and the families that they come from) would welcome a true diversity of student and faculty opinion and a public, open, democratic debate. To me, a college that would offer that would be a truly intellectual environment. </p>

<p>Doctorb,
I couldn’t disagree more strongly with your post. I would definitely agree that it represents an elitist mindset. </p>

<p>As far as the best school systems in the country, I think a much, much stronger argument can be made that this correlates a lot more highly with income than with political ideology.</p>

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<p>“*Pragmatists (including conservatives) can see this and figure why bother, I’m much better off going into business (or some other field) where what you do is far more important and relevant than how you think politically. *”</p>

<p>I think you’re right, and it explains why conservatives don’t found colleges that operate as you describe. There certainly is enough money in conservative coffers to do so, and they would be self-sustaining due to the broad support they would enjoy.</p>

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<p>Vossron,
Conservatives actually have a pretty long record of founding and/or making large donations to colleges, but I would guess that they want their colleges to be well regarded nationally and by the education industry and so they (the founder and/or large donor) can be acclaimed as this far-thinking, open-minded, wonderful, generous person. It’s a crock because the founder/donor was probably a cutthroat business tycoon who is just trying to legitimize his reputation now and in the future. But the historical path to acceptance in the academic elite has been by hiring liberal administrators/faculty members and so the liberal system perpetuates itself.</p>

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<p>tg - are you more afraid of not liking liberals or that they may not like you?</p>

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<p>I don’t think it’s an issue of “like,” I don’t hate anyone due to their political ideology, nor do I believe anyone will truly “hate” me because of my thought at an institute of higher education. As hawkette is so eloquently putting, my main fear is a lack of conservative thought and an overpowering liberal bias. Though on a personal level, I bet I could find people at all institutions that I find friendly, everyone wants to be apart of a certain group, especially when attending a school for four years. Knowing that a group of liberal individuals practically includes entire state universities is quite scary. Funny enough, this knowledge of a conservative division, or at least a few conservative faculty members, has led me (and for other reasons) to a high interest in the University of Chicago. Not only is the famous economic division mainly promoting laissez-faire capitalism (or used to, e.g. Milton Freidman), but with website browsing I found student run Objectivist society at the school.
I think the best example of this liberal grasped upon certain institutions (this is only an example) is shown by this article wrote about Ohio’s Ashland University. Though I respect the school for deny tenure for whomever they want, their reasoning is definitely unjust: </p>

<p>[FIRE</a> - Ashland University: No Objectivists Need Apply](<a href=“http://www.thefire.org/index.php/article/8226.html]FIRE”>Newsdesk | The Foundation for Individual Rights and Expression)</p>

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<p>In the end learning takes place in the learner, so you can learn anyplace if you want to. And like anything else, best for you depends on you.</p>