Most Unfair Rejection on CC?

Northstarmom · July 22, 2009, 12:06pm

“There will be some diversity even with a completely talent-based admissions process. And as for personal factors, I really don’t think many of us honestly believe a 500 word essay can tell enough about your personality – people are usually more complex than that. In the end, the burden is on the applicants to develop their talents and make them heard. It simply is not logical to reject someone who demonstrates tons of interest in something and achieves a lot at it in high school, and plans to pursue this something in college, in favor of those who give a favorable response to some personal essay question.”

Depending on the situation and the institution’s goals, it can be very logical to do exactly that.

For instance: an institution can have a choice of many people with sky high stats and extraordinary accomplishments in similar fields, but only has a few chances to offer admission to students who have the necessary stats, and also have written essays about how they managed to do well in school despite being homeless during most of their high school years.

Another example: a school has thousands of applicants with excellent grades and scores who want to be biochem majors and then go to med school, but has very few applicants with qualifying grades and scores who write essays indicating they want to enter fields like the ministry, social work, nursing, criminal justice or teaching.

mathboy98 · July 22, 2009, 2:22pm

You might not have carefully read the example I provided? Of my friend who managed admission to a top math PhD program in this especially competitive year with zero financial support from his family – and one with zero individuals in any academic field at all. He worked, OK? He worked to support himself, and simultaneously earned straight A’s at a school where it’s very hard to do. One of the brightest people I’ve met. He certainly couldn’t ace the SAT, because he has little knowledge of English, and this and that – but he managed to take the GRE, managed to take the necessary measures to get by. He’s complained many times about how it was tough to manage.

This guy made it clear with his record that he’s very good.

You are not addressing my central point, which is that we need to admit people whom we *know * are talented to the best extent possible. Even with all the measures being taken, a school like MIT certainly seems to admit several students out of certain very good schools. I happen to know a graduate student at my school who went to one of the very good schools and was an MIT undergraduate, and can see from his description what was good about that school. I don’t mind looking for talent among those less socioeconomically well off, but as I posted on the MIT forums once and discussed there, there really doesn’t seem to be a good way to judge “talent” for its own sake without the accomplishments that would otherwise indicate it.

And last, I really don’t think we’re arguing on my central concern – which is that in the end, even among a group of well off individuals going to a good private school, I don’t think admissions is necessarily picking out the most talented/driven – there is quite a bit of stuff in many applications that seems more like a personality survey to me than anything else. That is the stuff I want out, in favor of simple essays, that gauge what the applicant hopes to do in the future, and perhaps discussion of his/her background, since I do favor looking for talent in all backgrounds, however it may appear.

I just do not favor admitting a student without significant evidence of potential to match another’s, or just to intrinsically promote diversity. Now, if you have tons of ways of measuring potential beyond looking at traditional achievements, I’m willing to listen, but quite a few posters have agreed it’s a very, very hard task. Take the friend I wrote about – entered community college with not even precalculus background. Which among us could’ve spotted he was going to be such a terrific mathematical mind without explicitly talking to him and witnessing him do math? Even he thinks it would be roughly impossible – I think he entered college expecting he’d study sociology or something.

This is why, only in some scintillating cases do I think it’s wise to promote diversity. Else, let these students go to other schools, which are still good, and then go to top grad schools. Better than rejecting someone with tons of talent demonstrated through work in high school, along with achievement at the USAMO level…ready to jump into very complex work at the top schools, and to interact with their faculty.

mathboy98 · July 22, 2009, 2:32pm

OK, my comment on this is – what evidence is there to back up that they really want to enter such fields? Teenagers are whimsical creatures. If someone said “I want to become a mathematician” with significant math credentials to back it up, sure, that’s great, and I’d consider admitting them very strongly. So if someone spoke with an intent of going into teaching with hours and hours of tutoring experience, and wrote in essays maturely about what they think they could do in the given school to further ambitions of becoming great teachers, why not admit them, if our school really is known for its education programs? I’m all for that. That’s the kind of thing essays should do. But my complaint has been that we can’t treat essays as people – in the end, an application is a set of credentials to back up a small statement (the essay). Essays need to be backed up with lots and lots of facts.

And the nature of some essays is far from so productive, in my opinion. If all essays were such simple statements to be backed up by credentials, then I’d be glad indeed.

mathboy98 · July 22, 2009, 3:02pm

Look Jayay90 – here’s an example. Student A comes out of celebrated private school with tons of advanced physics knowledge that he’s read, writes about all of that, and indicates he wants to become a researcher, and go to MIT to do physics theory work. Student B comes out of a much less privileged background and self-studied calculus and got a 5 on the AP exam. Could be very talented. But we can’t assume so and reject Student A logically. (Note: I know it won’t come down to something between two such stereotypical cases, this is just for sake of argument.)

Now, if we want to admit Student B, we have to figure out what this individual is really like. The one way I can imagine doing that is interviewing them closely for 1.5-2 hours about their aspirations. Say Student B says he wants to study physics at MIT also. Well, I’d want to talk to him and figure out what all he knows and how mature his views on physics are! This sounds the best way to me, because it doesn’t loop in expensive testing materials, expensive private schools, or anything. In today’s day and age, you can get lots of books really cheap, and read them – cheap enough for people I know who are not financially well off at all. It is possible to become very knowledgeable without spending tons of money – usually it’s the certificates and testing that take money.

If we could conduct such interviews, and find out more about students, then I say it’s OK to admit someone like Student B if he really seems mature enough in his academic views to benefit from the background at MIT. Else, there are plenty of good schools out there, which he may be just as happy attending. Usually it’s people who’ve been in an environment concentrated with intellectuals, or who are already developed intellectuals, who want to be in an environment full of such individuals.

For someone like Student B, unless the potential is already clear, it makes sense to defer things.

But just because Student B overcame financial difficulties doesn’t mean he’s really going to get more out of MIT than if he hadn’t. Heck, people on the MIT threads have mentioned to me that “faith-based” admits, i.e. ones who were admitted because they had “potential” and fewer accomplishments to back this up often ended up struggling to scrape it through. Others ended up very successful. But in the end, we are taking a gamble if we judge based on 500 word essays, and possibly an interview that wasn’t very technical in nature!

You see my point? I don’t think diversity is bad to encourage, but not until you know more than the applications of today say.

Northstarmom · July 22, 2009, 6:31pm

“Student B comes out of a much less privileged background and self-studied calculus and got a 5 on the AP exam. Could be very talented.”

Sounds like he is very talented. No could-be about it. It’s not easy to self study calculus expecially when you don’t have highly educated parents to help you.

In fact, such a young person is likely to be far more motivated and intelligent than is the kid from an educated home and excellent school system who gets a 5 in AP calculus after tutoring and being helped by bright parents and an excellent high school class.

My experience has been that inteviews are far more likely to uncover the fact that the kid with high grades, etc. from a privileged background has accomplished those things due to having professor/engineer/scientist parents who’ve been helping the kid and pushing the kid with academics for years. In addition, the student is likely to have had tutors, gone to special summer camps, prep courses, and done lots of other things that have helped enhance his or her natural aptitude.

“But just because Student B overcame financial difficulties doesn’t mean he’s really going to get more out of MIT than if he hadn’t.”

That’s not what’s being considered. What’s being considered is that student B probably has a lot more aptitude tha the student has thus far had opportunities to develop. In addition. adding low income students to the class adds to the overall education – which includes the education that one gets from interacting with classmates from various backgrounds - - that students get in college.

Jayay90 · July 22, 2009, 8:33pm

Mathboy:

I get your graduate example. And that’s great for him. But that’s graduate school, a whole different ball game. I’m talking undergrad, fresh out of high school. There’s no way to earn enough money by yourself to make your record shine as much as those with more advantages do.
You say that they need to admit those who they ‘know’ are talented. They do. It’s not even a debate. As I’ve said before and I’ll say again, the vast majority of the people who apply to HYPSM are VERY VERY talented and could handle the work and excel. So the idea that this 40 point score difference, that award, or this EC makes one person talented and the other not talented doesn’t make sense.
“I just do not favor admitting a student without significant evidence of potential to match another’s, or just to intrinsically promote diversity.” - Neither do I. Never argued that that should be done. And like I said before, and I’ll say again, most of these applicants are ALL talented, all have potential, and one more award, AP, this that, whatever, isn’t what ‘proves’ they are inferior to another person.
I think we all are just assuming too much in all of these cases. We assume it was the diversity factor. We assume it was his essay. We assume all of this when we have absolutely no idea why he was rejected. At all. There’s absolutely no reason or grounds on which to guess.
On your student A, student B. Admissions doesn’t work that way. It’s not a side by side comparison. It never it is. It’s not ever student A or student B. It’s not choosing someone over someone else (and I think this is what people really need to understand). It’s choosing one person, and separately, independently, not choosing another. And that’s it.
And yea those types of interviews would be great. I’m not saying college apps are perfect. I’m saying there is more to life and students and admissions than test scores, and a good amount of it can come down to (what appears to be) chance or luck. And we all deal with it. Without whining about how ‘unfair’ it is. Grow-up. Transfer if you must. Go on to a great school and we’ll see ya in 10 years when you make your first million. Lol, honestly!

mathboy98 · July 22, 2009, 9:32pm

I already acknowledged this parenthetically, and that wasn’t the point of the example!

Agreed, I never suggest guessing what made people get rejected – often a futile attempt. However, I have made many points about things I worry are emphasized in the application process, which don’t really do a good job of capturing what applicants are like.

We are overall in agreement then, but really, not all applicants are at the same level.

I don’t care about test scores and grades beyond a point. Remember, I am not supporting whining. I am saying there are trends in the admissions process which are dangerous, and do not make sense. This is not from the standpoint of being fair to students. It’s from the standpoint that I believe what is special about HYPMS is the wealth of things they offer, the top quality curricula, and such things – which, admittedly, are found in a few other places, but not altogether many actually.

What I am saying is that until measures like these interviews are conducted, we cannot know enough about someone to admit them for their talent without having certain measures. You don’t yourself believe that colleges “know” for sure what they’re doing, it seems, from the two statements you’ve made. On one hand you think AOs know what they’re doing; on another, you acknowledge the process isn’t perfect – all I mean is it’s farther from perfect than it has to be. And I don’t blame you for the ambivalence. Because I don’t think admissions officers know enough info either. AOs make their best estimates. All I’m saying is that until we start extensively interviewing candidates, and doing much, much more than we are now to find out about them, it’s very hard to detect talent in someone without their having done some things we can simply measure. This, and we can ask them to produce a statement of intent as to what they’ll do in college, and look for maturity. This is why I say we have to mainly resort to basic measures of talent. That means, for instance to a scientist, doing research, performing very well in high school, maybe winning a competition, writing a mature essay about academic interests they developed through their reading. No frivolous essay questions please!

There is too much guessing today, in my opinion; I’m not judging this by who got in and who got rejected, I’m judging this from the way the applications are structured, and what is said to be very important in them! And, what do you know, very surprising results happen all the time.

mathboy98 · July 22, 2009, 9:44pm

You can certainly earn enough to take AP tests…buy relatively inexpensive books to read on your own…write about academic stuff you enjoyed reading about in your essay, and how you’ll pursue it in college…try tutoring, like my friend did for instance! Something like that. I don’t like essay questions that ask things like “What’s something you’d like to tell your future roommate?” Keep it to a statement on what you want to get out of college, plus an additional info page to make AOs aware of special circumstances. No fluff!

My friend had to pay for food, rent, everything. You can certainly do a lot to embellish an application with not too much on it if you’re resourceful.

At the core, I agree wealth can create an advantage in terms of embellishing the record. All I’m saying is that we have to be careful that whoever we’re labeling to be exceptionally talented really is going to benefit from attending, say MIT, tremendously enough that it makes sense to admit them. I don’t think you have a clear answer on how to measure the talent of someone without tons of stuff on the record to support it. Neither did many on the MIT threads. If someone told me there’s an easy answer, I’d be skeptical, but would be willing to listen.

Jayay90 · July 22, 2009, 10:44pm

There’s not an easy answer. Even no fluff essay questions, intense interviews, etc. etc. don’t guarantee or even ensure we get closer to having those who would ‘benefit the most’ from HYPMS get there.

But really, it’s not that big of a deal. Honestly. There are many many studies that show that talented students do well wherever they attend. A particular one I saw (talking about Stanford) noted that top students who applied and then were rejected succeed academically and financially just as much as those who were accepted. And isn’t that what it is all about? I think top schools realize that, and aren’t losing any sleep over who they reject.

Northstarmom · July 22, 2009, 11:14pm

It’s important to realize that top college admissions aren’t based on who’ll benefit the most by being there, but who’ll contribute the most to the college by being there or by having been there. This could be by being a star athlete, standout in academics or extracurriculars or by being an alum who is a big contributor to their community or field of employment. Of course students whose contributions are that their parents give big bucks to support the college also are appreciated for their “contributions.”

mathboy98 · July 23, 2009, 12:38am

Well, sure. In any case, I believe we understand each other. I don’t have too much more to add, and I think you can see at least why I’d want a little bit of a cleaning up of applications! I have heard some top schools really, really emphasize their essay questions (as in, as a final deciding factor on whom to admit, more than ECs or test scores or grades, once these factors have been stamped as “decent”), and many of these seem less to do with the student’s accomplishments within context of background, and seem to be asking things which really can’t be figured out without getting to fully know a student.

I’m sure talented students will manage anywhere, just it makes most sense in context of the resources available to let only ones with extremely tangible accomplishments gauging their motivation and readiness into top schools which teach many very special high level classes, may have great sports teams, and are specially great institutions of learning.

Hm, I can possibly see this, though in many cases those who will benefit are also those who will contribute, no? I see a college flourishing if its students go on to do great things.

Northstarmom · July 24, 2009, 12:37pm

“Hm, I can possibly see this, though in many cases those who will benefit are also those who will contribute, no? I see a college flourishing if its students go on to do great things.”

Alum of the top schools do go on to do great things in a variety of ways, fields and types of service. In addition to doing well in their fields, alum of top schools typically do a lot of community service, just like they did in college and in high school, and they do such service because they enjoy giving back.

diontechristmas · July 29, 2009, 1:44am

My brother with a 35 ACT, near 4.0 in all honors and APs at a top PA private school, varsity tennis, president of investment club, a few other leadership roles, community service, fluent in two languages getting waitlisted at Northwestern was pretty bad.

kwu · July 29, 2009, 1:47am

Yes, diontechristmas, but where does your brother go to college now?

diontechristmas · July 29, 2009, 2:56am

He got off the waitlist at Wharton. He’ll be a freshman.

Most Unfair Rejection on CC?

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