movie 'The Big Short'

Many bankers did lose everything and some did go to jail. For the most part, these were not Wall Street bankers but the officers and owners of smaller banks in rural areas where a single person or a small group, sometimes related, made all the loan decisions, controlled all the books, made loans to themselves or family members, pyramided sales making a ‘profit’ on one condo sale and buying 3 more, selling those at a lose but flipping the deal (and writing off the loss) to get even more condos in the same project. Georgia had no branch banking for a long time, so there were tons of small banks and many failed. Florida had a lot of small banks lending to projects that weren’t going anywhere but down the drain. California, Arizona, Nevada had a lot of new growth in projects and in banking, so many banks failed. States with a solid history of banking and regulation had few bank failures. Banks that specialized in one type of lending (farmers, high tech, low cost real estate) were more likely to fail because they couldn’t spread the risk among their products.

Is it easier to regulate one big bank or 50 small ones with the same net worth? Definitely the one big one.

Failure is ok as long as the financial industry isn’t taken down with it.

“curious if your son saw it and got it. I don’t think mine would grasp it, neither understanding finance nor having any savvy about 2008.”

@lookingforward, he saw it with us on Xmas Day and he definitely got it. We are a family that watches the news every night and read the NYT every day so it was discussed at the dinner table - even before Lehman Bros. went under
( plus my ex BIL was with Bear for many years.) I don’t know about others but H and I saw the housing crash coming way before the bottom completely fell out and how it was going to bring the whole economy down with it.

I don’t know how anyone with half a brain didn’t see the crash coming.

@dstark I guess I don’t view loans as a cost which is what I was thinking in terms of your question about the size of the bailouts. To the extent repaid, its not a cost.

The US hasn’t had a free market economy for at least 100 years. Certainly since the 1920s. Do you think the government played any role in crash of 2008?

I never said I know there were no crimes committed. And to the extent there were, I have said I support prosecution. What specific crimes do you know were committed and by whom?

Failure also isn’t ok if it takes down the US auto industry with it.

Reality as I noted is the world economy’s life blood is credit. Cut it off (with financial industry failure) and you see global economy impacts. Do you agree that is true? If not, why not? If so, what should we do about it to put us in the position of allowing the financial industry to fail?

@saillakeerie Gov’t definitely played a role. Here’s a great visual representation explaining what led to the recession.

I HIGHLY recommend.

https://vimeo.com/3261363

If anyone plans on seeing The Big Short, they definitely should watch this video and read the book beforehand. It will make it a lot easier to understand. I actually had a class in high school based on the book. I haven’t seen the film yet, but I am excited to check it out.

There is no cost because loans are paid back? The costs are shifted.

This zero interest policy crushed people. Savers are buried.

The leaders of out country pick and choose the winners. Is that what we want? By doing this, resources are allocated poorly. There is a cost by doing this whether loans are paid back or not.

The government played some role. The Clinton-Gramm deal, I think it was in 1999, that kept some derivatives unregulated was huge. The 2003 deal between the SEC and the investment firms allowing increased leverage was huge.

Overall, it was more the private sector’s fault. Nobody forced the private sector to leverage so much. Liar loans, where did they come from? Synthesized CDOs… That’s a littlte too much. The Greenspan put is very very big.

I am pretty sure Blankfein lied under oath when he said GS was acting like a market maker with these CDOs.

I was an option market maker. So what GS was suggesting is a new kind of market making to me. :slight_smile:

I saw many crimes during my career. Insider trading. Frontrunning. Firms not representing their customers interest. Very few people got in trouble.

I have been retired for 3 years. Maybe things are squeaky clean now. :slight_smile:

This is bs to me.

This is wishing.

Movies like “The Big Short” are entertainment, they aren’t documentaries, and they thrive on some of the rhetoric I have heard, how it was the evil wall street types out to make a buck and destroy middle america, and while I would be the last person to argue about the greed factor and the lack of morality in financial institutions (just think of that jack off hedge fund boosting the price of drugs, and the ceo showing up in congress basically showing contempt for anyone…definitely a person who if I see their obituary, I will be glad to see it).

However, that also puts the blame on one thing, and with 2008, there was a ton of blame. The government was to blame, in the mid 00’s after Paulson (then head of Goldman) and others went to the SEC, complaining that the escrow requirements for risky trading for tying up valuable capital, and they made a deal that they would send reports of their activity to the government in exchange for loosening those requirements…and those reports showed the betting on CDO’s that the big firms were doing, how much they have tied up in them, and exposure of other firms (like AIG) to the CDS’s (credit default swaps) written against them (AIG had about 15 billion in CDS’s they wrote for Goldman alone)…but the government, not surprising given the then administrations view of the SEC and regulation, was to assume ‘the firms knew what they were doing’…and when the market went south, these firms didn’t have escrow that would have helped lessen the affects.

Bond agencies like S and P and Moody’s faced a conflict of interest, much as accounting firms did with the earnings reporting scandal before. They solicit business from the companies they rate the bonds and such of, so when it came to CDO’s, the wonderful mortgage backed instruments that were at the heart of a lot of this, they were afraid to look too closely, so rated these things based on formulas using standard 30 year mortgage default rates to assess risk, which basically was BS (a lot of the mortgates feeding the CDO trough were garbage, quite frankly). They basically didn’t know how to evaluate these instruments, and instead of admitting that and saying the risk on them was huge because there was no way to assess them, they made them look like they were investment grade.

CDO’s also drove a lot of the bad mortgages, the BS blaming Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae was political subterfuge (not saying they didn’t have problems, they did), but most of the bad mortgages were driven by the fact that banks were told by hedge funds and investment banks to write mortgages, don’t worry about the risk. Banks didn’t care, because most mortgages banks sell are sold into the third market, they don’t keep them, so they didn’t hold the risk, so hundreds of billions of dollars of mortgages were written that were sold and chopped up into CDO’s…and they were so hot, the demand for mortgages drove the frenzy.

Not to mention, of course, people were to blame as well, people saw house prices rising and were busy ‘cashing out’, they would get a crap mortgage at low rates that made it affordable, and assumed they could refinance it as the price went up, have equity, and get a standard mortgage. Others took out money in home equity loans, without looking at what would happen if the market would tank. Worse, a lot of these houses were being built in markets like Tampa and Las Vegas and Arizona that didn’t have the economic base to support the prices, it was all speculation (put it this way, in the NYC metro area, house prices fell, but in those other areas it was often 50% or more…in my area, it was about 15-20% or so, and since have come back).

Worse, when most financial products trade, they go through a clearing process (called a clearing house settled transaction), where there are rules for the firms clearing the trades, they are controls making sure the trades met the rules, the firm had escrow, and more importantly, if one side of the trade goes bust (usually the buyer), the clearing house members basically make good on the trade, so the seller is not screwed. A lot of the CDO and CDS activity was done bilaterally, pretty much a handshake deal between the two parties, no clearing house, no check of assets. When crap started going south, there were hundreds of billions of dollars in these things. Worse, for example, firms like AIG were writing CDS’s (which in effect are an insurance policy), not to the holders of the underwritten object, but basically to someone betting on whether the product would go under. So for example, I could get a CDS written against a CDO Goldman sachs wrote, basically betting the cdo would go under, and if it did, I would get the payout (called a naked CDS). Goldman themselves did this with instruments out there, they had more than a bit with AIG that were naked CDS’s.

Another factor that let this happen was that when Wall Street trades things, the price is evaluated on risk, this is true of options pricing, derivatives pricing (yeah, I distinguish between the two, some don’t), it is how debt instruments are rated as well (you know that, the lower the FICA score, the more they charge you, it is no different). There are formulas, models they use to evaluate the risk on an instrument, or likelyhood that they will pay off, uses variations on the Scholes/Black model generally, that take into account the underlying price of something, current interest rates, how long to settlement, how rapidly the option/derivative price shifts when the underlying price does. With CDO’s, there was an attempt to model the behavior of these, even though being new, these instruments didn’t have a track record, among other things, no one knew how good the underlying mortgages were, especially since each CDO could represent a piece of several thousand mortgages. One genius came up with a model, that used the price of the CDS’s written against the CDO to figure out how it should be priced…which of course, was crap, because the CDS guys didn’t know either. Worse, almost everyone in that market used that model, which is a no no. In trading instruments on risk, almost every firm uses a proprietary pricing model, trying to outguess the other guy, and as a result, when the dung hits the fan not everyone loses, with CDO’s they were all using the same model and made the same damn mistake.

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Then we come to a major factor, for the 30 years leading up to 2008, there was a major push by the free market economics types to get rid of the depression era laws that separated investment banking from commercial banking and limited banks exposure to the securities market.One of the prime causes of the 1920’s crash was banks lending money for stock speculation, it drove the Glass-Steagal Act and other legislation.

By 1999, those laws were gone (and it was a rare one, neither democrats or republicans could hide from that one, Bill Clinton signed the law because his financial advisors were people like Larry Summers and Rubin, who pushed for allowing this). It created the financial giants like JP Morgan Chase, Citigroup and the like, and the firewalls were gone. Banks for example lent money to hedge funds (who operate, by the way, on 60 borrowed dollars to every dollar they have invested), who were heavy players in risky investments. In my opinion, it was one of the biggest factors in all this.

Tell you a little story, Bear Stearns was one of the first financial firms to go under, two of their hedge funds were heavy players in CDO’s. When Goldman publicly announced they were getting out of CDO’s, the market started to collapse. The hedge funds I am talking about, when their investors wanted their money (ie their ‘paper profits’), rather than closing the fund and paying off the investors with what it was worth, borrowed a ton of money from banks to pay off the investors, further leveraging themselves, and they used the CDO’s they owned as collateral, which the banks didn’t even bother to evaluate. When Bear went under, the Fed (shades of Long term capital in the 1990’s), brokered a deal to sell Bear to I believe Merril Lynch, and underwrote the transaction. Why? Had they let Bear fail totally, about a half a dozen commercial banks would have had deep cracks or folder, draining the FDIC…and that was one instance.

Put it this way, if we let the firms fail, it would have been a cataclysm as bad or worse than the 1929 crash IMO, it would have cripped the financial system, especially the overnight borrowing the libor measures. Put it this way, when Lehman failed, it crippled critical commercial lending, the libor spread between bid and ask was almost 7.5 points, normally it is half a point, basically meant there was no overnight/short term borrowing that businesses depend on all the time.

We are now 8 years out from the crash, and banks still are unwilling to lend, it is one of the reasons growth is anemic. Even though they can borrow at 0 percent, they don’t want to do it, and it is putting brakes on the economy. If we hadn’t had the bailout, it would be worse, that much I am sure of.

Dodd Frank in some ways did help, for example, most transactions now have to go through clearinghouses, including CDS’s and other derivative products, and there is more exposure with the trading, the regulations require these things not happen privately. Basel III has different regs, but by agreement, on key points they are supposed to be in line with Dodd Frank. For example, on swap transactions (a kind of derivatives trade) Basel required firms to keep escrow for the trade for 3 days, while in Dodd Frank it is one day. If they hadn’t reconciled that, firms would have moved clearing operations to the US, because the cost of Basel would have added about 15-20% to their costs.

And yes, Wall Street plays a horsepower war with regulators, they find new ways around regulations all the time. In the equities markets, all best prices are supposed to be published and by law any order has to be executed at the best price out there. However, there are executors out there that because they trade less than 5% of the given stock in a given day, don’t have to publish, so called dark pools. They claimed that they were out there because they served the institutional market (pension funds and the like), who trade long term…until, surprise surprise, they found out the average trade size on them was like 180 shares, which means they were likely serving the flash trading/rapid trading community, not institutions (institutional orders are usually large,>1000 shares on average). There is the whole flash trading, where orders are submitted with a cancel a millisecond behind the order, where they are taking advantages in how slow quotes update versus execution (if someone is publishing a price, even if the underlying order traded that caused that price, they have to execute the order, they are taking advantage of latency). With Dodd Frank, execution firms switched derivatives over to be classed as futures, because under Dodd Frank swaps require more margin and longer held escrow.

On the other hand, blaming Wall Street for everything is quite frankly, idiotic. Yes, there are questionable practices, yes, despite what that idiot Greenspan and the University of Chicago think, greed causes business people to make stupid decisions, gambling with our economic system, they don’t act rationally (Greenspan in front of congress with his head in his hands, after years of talking about the rationality of markets, saying he was flabbergasted was worth the price of admission).

Yet those same markets have made stock trading accessible to people, back in the good old days before electronic execution you paid a lot to trade, and you also paid a lot if you wanted to trade small lots (called odd lots, under 100 shares). Institutional investors used to pay through the nose to trade through full service brokerages, they paid for information, they paid to trade, electronic execution through agency brokers and ecn’s let them trade at a fraction of the price (when I started out, institutions paid well over 20c a share to trade stock in their portfolios, and they trade huge blocks most of the time, the firm I worked for had that down to about 7c, these days it is a lot less),whch given that most people have exposure to the markets in pensions, 401k’s and mutual funds, means you make more money. The same investment bankers who can pul a goldman sachs and take down the economy, also create all kinds of things, make things happen, like bond issues for municipalities, financing for new companies. Doesn’t mean I think everything i see is good, but Wall Street is like the banking industry, there are good players, there are a lot of good people, and there also are scum of the earth, but guess what, very few places you see absolute good any more…the same Catholic Church that promotes social welfare, does incredible charitable work, also committed one of the grossest breaches of trust in history…do you write off all Catholics because their leadership acted a lot of the time like thugs? Government has a lot of screw ups, but they also have done a lot of things that made the country into what it is (and I mean in a good way).

The Big Short was a about a tiny part of the crisis. I think people expect too much. I hear similar criticisms about Spotlight.

The Big Short is not supposed to be all encompassing.

Paulson, the hedge fund guy, made the most money using cds. He is not in the movie. I don’t think GS is in the movie.

I don’t remember country wide credit or the alt A firms in the movie. This financial crisis was world wide too.

For the poster who asked why they broke up the Bell System, the answer was very simple, ATT wanted to be broken up. Why? As the Bell System, they were a regulated monopoly, and as such, were forbidden from going into other markets, like computers or network routers and the like, because they could use their position as a monopoly on phone service to basically undercut competitors in other markets and drive them out. ATT invented the Unix operating system, that today is the predominant system on most computers out there other than desktops and the remnants of IBM’s mainframe business, and more importantly, they had a whole line of computers and switching and routing technology they hoped to sell. By separating out ATT, they hoped they could become a technology company. Problem was, their management stank, and they failed to compete against nimbler, better run companies.

@dstark Government picks winners and loser all the time. Tax code, bankruptcy code, labor laws, etc. Is that what we want? Seems to me it would be best to minimize that (don’t think it can be avoided entirely) but politicians (and most people) don’t seem to see it that way. But by railing against zero interest rates, aren’t you really just lobbying for different winners/losers rather than winners/losers not being picked?

I am more on the pure lending side of the financial world. I defer to your knowledge of the investment banking business (and to @musicprnt who has a lot more experience/understanding of the investment banking side of the industry).

@musicprnt I agree with pretty much everything you posted. Except that I think the banks are lending. And they have been. There definitely was a slowdown after the crash. But lending activity generally picked up. Since there have been some ups and downs in terms of activity but that is pretty normal. This year has been slow and sounds like it will be slow. Big part of that though is due to uncertainty in the market. Even though growth has not been huge, we have had an extended period of positive growth which likely cannot continue.

And how would Glass Steagal (pre-1999) have prevented the financial meltdown? The first dominoes that fell during the meltdown were investment banks, AIG and Freddie/Fannie and had nothing to do with Glass Steagal. And what created problems for the commercial banks were bad real estate mortgage loans which would have existing under Glass Steagal.

@saillakeerie, the savers were minding their own business. I feel bad for them. They are screwed.

Also, as I wrote, there are negative effects with zero rates. We may end up with big problems in the future because of zero rates.

I was not on the investment banking side. I was on the trading side. Just clarifying. :slight_smile:

I agreed with the issues with respect to zero interest rates. And noted concerns with respect to deflation and long term issues it has caused in Japan.

But I was really asking about your statement with respect to government picking winners and losers. Had Fed increased rates years ago (assuming we would have avoided deflation), wouldn’t that have been picking different winners and losers?

Either way, I work with commercial banks/affiliates on lending transactions.

@saillakeerie,

Yeah…

The people who are most affected right now by zero interest rates were not speculating. I want the losers to be the people who originally lost.

I can’t always get what I want. :slight_smile:

How long have you been involved in lending transactions? Were you working during the financial crisis? Did you see anything you didn’t like going on?

@saillakeerie:
Glass Steagal would have prevented a lot of things. For one thing, it would have prevented commercial banks from lending money to hedge funds and other financial institutions, and that was most definitely part of the problem. The other problem that Glass Steagal likely would have helped would have been the banks selling mortgages to hedge funds and the like, before Glass Steagal that would have been scrutinized and likely been forbidden, but with the barriers down, it did not raise eyebrows. Banks ended up in the crapper because of bad loans to hedge funds, they ended up with a portfolio of CDO’s they took as collateral to the hedge funds (that would have been illegal before the end of Glass Steagal), and they ended up with bad mortgages because they continued to originate bad mortgages, assuming they would be bought to create CDO’s, and when that crashed, they ended up with them.

The other thing you are forgetting is prior to the end of Glass Steagal, integrated financial institutions like JP Morgan Chase, Citigroup, B of A which owns a number of financial institutions and the like were not legal, and before Glass Steagal, AIG’s activity with derivatives would have been illegal, as part of those laws restrictions on what a financial institution like AIG could do were wiped out as well, it was part of the whole “deregulate the financial industry”… , and when the crap hit the fan on the markets, guess what, it hurt the entire company, there were no real firewalls any more, the commercial banking arm was lending money to the investment banking and trading end and when one suffered, guess what, the entire thing did.

As far as banks lending, they are still not lending the way they should, part of the anemic growth is that even with 0 percent interest rates, which means they borrow money at no cost and make decent money on the spread, they aren’t lending, they are still spooked, and there has been stuff written all over the place, in financial journals, on the blah blahs on the financial networks, wondering how safe the banks are, could they pass a stress test for example. I think the proof is that the economy has failed to grow all that much, while open lending can only do so much, I think it is one of the drags.

As far as why they are keeping rates down, it is because they are afraid if they raise interest rates, the economy will slip into recession again. Raising interest rates is a way to slow demand, and with demand so sluggish, raising rates might help passbook holders and the like, but it could trash the broader economy. My background is technical but in trading and other areas that were/are involved in the middle of a lot of these issues.

@dstark Who would deflation help? Especially if it was long term and systematic? And higher interest rates would hurt growth making it tougher for the labor market to recover. Did people who lost their jobs originally lose?

I was around for the financial crisis. Didn’t see anything that I didn’t like. Though I do little real estate loans (and no residential). Securitizations I have worked on are garden variety receivables transactions. Nothing crazy and nothing creating losses for anyone. Worked on auto loan securitizations a while back. Originator went bankrupt in the early 2000s recession when captive finance companies started offering zero percent financing. That pushed all the third party lenders who were making new car loans down into used car market and competition bankrupted some providers. Issuer was dissolved but no purchasers of any of the underlying paper lost anything to my knowledge. Pretty vanilla stuff.

@saillakeerie, I am not as sure about increasing interest rates hurting the economy. If short term rates go to 1 percent, is that a disaster? Depends on how long term rates perform. Depends on other factors.

I don’t see rates normalizing for a very long time.

I’m not sure I said deflation would help. Some people on fixed incomes may like deflation. I may benefit. :slight_smile:

I know mortgage brokers. There was a lot of crap going on. Washington Mutual with its pick a payment loan plan. 5 percent loan. Just pay 1 percent. Add the rest of the interest to principle. Non documented liar loans. I was told a lot of stories before the crisis. I wish I knew about cds before the crisis hit. I don’t know if I would have done anything.

Banks got involved in high risk lending, high default rate lending, and they didnt know how to handle it. I had been in the finance industry. We routinely had default rates of 10% and we knew how to deal with them and charged in interest rates to cover those defaults. You missed a payment, we called. We knew it wouldn’t get better the next month, that things only got worse when you owed 2 or 3 or 7 payments. Banks, savings and loans, credit unions weren’t used to that type of borrower and soon people were upside down on houses that had been under secured anyway. The borrowers had nothing invested so had nothing to lose. Banks, law firms, collectors could keep up with collections. There are still people living in foreclosure properties who haven’t made a payment in 5 years.

Leave the high risk lending to the pros - finance companies and loan sharks. Banks need to make well secured loans.

@musicprnt The money banks make on loans is always on the spread. It doesn’t matter what their cost of funds is. A loan at prime plus 2 will result in the same margins to the bank whether prime is 0.25% or 1.5%. And prime will be based on the discount rate. Same is true with loans at LIBOR. Impact to borrower is what changes as the borrowing costs are reduced with a lower prime rate/LIBOR. The impact on the borrower is the target of a zero percent interest rate. It doesn’t provide a windfall to the banks because their cost of funds are lower. Could without competition but there is a lot of it in the industry.

And banks are not drivers of loan demand. Borrowers have to have the need/desire to borrow and reduced costs of borrowing can make a loan which didn’t make sense at the higher cost make sense at the lower cost. I think the issue is a lack of demand for loans rather than banks unwilling to lend.

I have read a lot of reports about the problem being banks aren’t lending. But working in the commercial finance industry, I just don’t see that. There has been a lot of loan activity since the crash. And banks would like more.

And to the extent banks are not letting money fly out the door in terms of loans, is that necessarily a bad thing? Big part of the great recession was caused by banks making loans that never should have been made. Do we want to go back there again?