Musical Theater Major or Acting Major?

fishbowlfreshman · December 4, 2007, 9:04pm

Sooz,

My current school has a couple fewer percentage points on admittance, a higher yield, and the training offered is generally considered to be “Masters level.” I’ve even seen Tarhunt in the past recommend it as a one of the better places to train in the US. However, my first program really was a very good university BFA with approximately 35-40% of the curriculum based in general education. I probably would have stayed with plans to later pursue an MFA had some unfortunate things not happened in my personal life. It sure would have been cheaper since I was on a full ride for academics … I attribute the difference in skill to a much higher number of contact hours in training as opposed to a larger “distribution” requirement and time allowed for double majoring, pursuing other interests, etc. We’ll have to agree to disagree on that, but I do feel I have a real basis for the opinion.

We can definitely agree on that. There are different ways, different benefits to be gained from following each, and those **differences **and different benefits need to be recognized and discussed fully if this is to be a worthwhile forum in helping people make their decisions.

Now hold on a doggone minute … If that’s the way I am now being taken, the time has definitely come for me to remove CC from my favorites list and stop posting. I would have long ago had some people not told me they found my insights valuable. The only reason I come back here is to help people make informed decisions on which path they choose. I’m not saying anything to be elitist and I certainly don’t view the paths chosen by others as inferior. Makes me damned glad I decided not to reveal which program I attend because I wouldn’t want that connotation attached to it on a public forum …

All this is definitely an individual thing. For instance, notice that I just recently posted some things that could potentially scare some away from conservatories or at least make them think twice about what they might be getting themselves into on the Theater/Drama thread. (And btw, your expounding on it pretty much covered what I would have said if I’d had the time.) I’d just like to think that somewhere in all this I might have prevented a square peg from being forced into a round hole thereby creating another “freshman in a fish bowl.” It really does suck going through this process twice.

GIJane,
Obviously, Sooz’s daughter has some related and very marketable skills she can make money with that many don’t have. Besides waiting tables, bartending, office temping or teaching; other people I know make theirs as hair stylists, aestheticians, massage therapists, fitness trainers and real estate agents - none of which require a college degree although I think there is a licensing process for some. I know of but haven’t actually met a couple that are supposedly fabulous actors who work in regional repertory theatre in the spring and summer and spend the rest of the year putting away money for retirement by driving a big 18-wheeler cross-country as a team! I wouldn’t recommend this, but I also know one who went to my h/s who dropped out of his BFA program and now auditions for commercial work by day and works as an “exotic dancer” by night. Hope he’s happy …

However, from what I gather, a good paying job with health insurance benefits (you’re lucky to not have to worry about that) in corporate America will probably take a lot more than you want to give if you’re trying to pursue an acting career. I know that if I were a management type under the gun, I’d probably think twice about hiring someone who was obviously pursuing other interests. It costs time and money to train people.

I’d be interested in hearing what some of our “old pros” may have done between gigs. Any overlooked lines of work? Horror stories?

Tarhunt · December 4, 2007, 11:30pm

How would we survive?

mtdog71 · December 5, 2007, 7:10am

All theatre is local. You have to be in the theatre to experience the production. Hence, everyone’s experience with theatre is subjected to the localities in which they have experienced live theatre. This makes it difficult to speak in comparative generalities. Another truth is that a good bit of theatre casting gets to be quite fraternal - the casting powers get used to a circle, a region, a training program. I mention this because Tar’s assertation that so many of the accomplished actors (s)he has seen have been from Delaware - which I know has an outstnading program. Nonethe less, I would suggest that view is colored by, even though you might see 70 productions per year, a still somewhat limited and perhaps regionalized view. Films and television do provide a more universal venue against which more general statements might be more generally made. In those media, one must admit an impressive line of actors have arisen out of Britian - however, I’d defy anyone to compare lists of successful careers. An equally impressive list of North American actors could be generated as English actors. Again, this is cultural imperialism, I hope you all realize how eurocentric this conversation has been. Very little attention to Eastern cultural contibutions in this thread.
And while is has not actually been exactly spoken, there are racist undertones here as well.

It seems to me every couple of months this board gets into arguements that have no resolution - at least not over the internet - religion, sexuality, morality - and the most trite of these - if acting training holds some celestially proclaimed superiority over MT training.

This board is about musical theatre and high school kids wanting to get involved in training for musical theatre. I think those who wish to discuss acting programs should have their own discussion group. I think there exist sufficient boards that already exist for those afflicted with anglophilia.

Finally, I do wish we could be more civil all around.

MichaelNKat · December 5, 2007, 8:45am

Fishbowlfreshman states : I’m not saying anything to be elitist and I certainly don’t view the paths chosen by others as inferior."

Oh, really? Then either you have poor communication skills or selective memory. Go back and read your own posts:

“I personally find it interesting to speculate on why and how the UK schools have turned out many of the greatest actors of any generation and why and how the US acting schools have had much less success in doing so. I’m not talking about having a wonderful career. Jessica Simpson has a wonderful career. I’m talking about making art.”

“Remember that I attended a liberal arts heavy BFA program for a semester and I’ll say without hesitation that the skill level of the senior actors at that school didn’t even remotely compare to what I’m seeing now. It’s almost a shame that they get the same degree.”

“Believe that all you want, but I think the now somewhat mutated subject of this discussion is why the UK schools have a history of turning out better actors. They apparently don’t see it that way.”

Geez … I didn’t realize UArts had such a high standard of liberal learning … ALL the Accredited American BFA schools include some liberal arts in the curriculum. Some more than others. They have to require a certain number to remain accredited.
Quote:
some kids really DO think of the liberal arts classes as liabilities!!!
Not so much “liabilities.” More like a big honkin’ burnout inducing waste of time that the Brits don’t have to deal with. I sure am glad I don’t have to be bothered with them anymore. Having completed all such requirements, I can now rest assured that my development as a person has been duly nurtured. All those RADA grads must be envious. Pu-leez …"

All said in response to those who posited that a healthy mixture of liberal arts in a MT or acting curriculum was viewed as personally desirable and beneficial in the development of the student as a person and performer. If you don’t see your responses as elitist, condescending and judgmental, then perhaps there’s a bigger gap in your education than you think.

Finally you state: “If that’s the way I am now being taken, the time has definitely come for me to remove CC from my favorites list and stop posting.”

That’s certainly an option and a lot easier than engaging in some self reflection. Last time I heard that though, it was out on a playground and had something to do with marbles. If you think you have something informative or interesting to contribute, then by all means do so. But do it without attempting to delegitimize or belittle differing point of view.

jacksdad · December 5, 2007, 9:35am

Wow, Michaelnkat, what an amazingly vehement post from a member who is usually poised and reasonable. Why did these comments hit such a nerve with you and why is Fishbowl’s point of view so egregious that you think he should leave the board. C’mon people, lighten up. This level of confrontation limits lurkers and more timid posters from participating in the discussion.

NotMamaRose · December 5, 2007, 9:46am

FWIW, I have found the above discussion very lively and stimulating, though there has been (from time to time) a somewhat tense “tone” in some posts. Perhaps I am in the minority here, but I think this kind of discussion/debate is a good thing. Must we all agree 100% of the time? I don’t think so at all. I don’t even think total agreement is desirable. I think that everyone who posts and reads here can benefit from listening to (and yes, even challenging) each other’s points of view. Just my two cents. :)

jacksdad · December 5, 2007, 9:51am

I agree that the discussion is worthwhile however challenging other posters to leave the board is inappropriate, IMO.

MichaelNKat · December 5, 2007, 9:51am

jacksdad - I’ll reply to you in more detail in a PM when I have a minute; I don’t want to continue the distractions from what should be a constructive dialogue. Suffice it to state for the moment that I did not suggest that fishbowl leave, fishbowl did in response to another poster’s post suggesting that fishbowl was being close minded and judgmental. And I think that all points of view that are reasonably expressed with respect for others have a place on this forum. I found those qualities lacking, particularly that of respect.

soozievt · December 5, 2007, 10:03am

Fish,

You quoted me:

And then replied:

I am surprised by your reaction. I am not even sure what you mean by “the way I am now being taken.” I was recognizing and affirming the choices you made for education that fit what you want and repeatedly said that such a path makes sense as a good fit for those who want to concentrate only on the training. I went on to explain how other paths fit what some others may want but that their choices aren’t better, just like yours is not. Earlier, you appeared to have frowned upon the taking of any liberal arts classes. I was suggesting that it makes sense for you to frown upon that for YOURSELF because you prefer to not take those and I totally understand and support your choice for yourself. I was suggesting an openness to understanding why others chose a path or education that differs from yours and that their reasons worked for them. No better, no worse. Just as I would not frown upon your choices because I think you made very good choices for yourself, I was suggesting that rather than be negative about other types of programs, to rather just say those were not for you for X or Y reason, but you can see how some want to have breadth or a foundation for its own sake and NOT as a “fallback” career (which was my original point …to NOT assume that all who want SOME liberal arts as part of their education see it as a ‘fallback’ but rather see it as enhancing their education for lifelong learning and as a solid foundation that impacts their life as a performer.) I wasn’t trying to convince you that it is better but only explaining why SOME (you even questioned my use of “some”) have chosen such an educational background just like I totally understand your choices. I tried to understand the choices you have made (and I do and I applaud them) and was hoping that by sharing other opinions/choices, that you might understand them, even if these were not choices you would have made for yourself. Nothing more, nothing less. I thought it was a discussion.

I have to tell you that I TRULY VALUE YOUR INPUT ON CC and so I am surprised by your thinking I took you a certain way. I was discussing a TOPIC and not making opinions about YOU. I actually think you have been a VERY VALUABLE and knowledgable poster and I have enjoyed reading your posts for many years under the posting names you have used. You have contributed valuable insights, experiences and come across as one smart young woman. So, I am sorry if you thought I “took” you a certain way. I was discussing the topic and the viewpoints we each had shared and was responding to ones you had stated.

I’m glad you have shared your path and the reasons for it. THAT is indeed valuable. But in so doing, there was a bit of aspersion cast on other paths and so I was saying that some made those choices for valuable reasons like you have and their reasons were not ones you had assumed such as fallback careers and so forth. So, I shared another path and rationale and I don’t think the path is better than yours but simply fits what a person wants for an experience. Likewise, I understand your choices and I think they fit your rationale for yourself but don’t think it is a better path to becoming an actor but simply most fitting for your purposes. I want you to share your choices and experiences here, as I value a variety of views, but it is best to do that without what appeared to be negatively viewing other types of learning that are trying to achieve a similar end. It is better to view it as an option you don’t want for YOURSELF, but not so much as a poor option to becoming a successful or skilled actor.

Perhaps you got some replies to your posts that you did due to some interpretting your posts that appeared to them (even if you never had intended to do so) as being negative of other types of theater education choices. You very well may be supportive of other paths but some statements you made came across differently and so if you didn’t mean that, you can clarify what you did mean and you did do that somewhat in your most recent post. Realize on a message board that some may take your words to mean something and reply based on their understanding of what they think you were saying. If their interpretation is incorrect, you just have to come back and clarify what you had meant. An example is when you talked about the actors at another school not being as skilled and you attributed that to that they also take some liberal arts classes with the BFA conservatory training. Several posts DID come across as your saying that actors who go through a certain type of training are inferior. You may have not MEANT that and that’s OK…come back and explain why those who read the post misintrepretted you. That’s what forum discussion entails. There are frequent misinterpretations and then the person can reply and discuss or clarify, etc.

Again, I value your sharing and views. It is your choice whether to post but you have always been a valued member, so I am not sure your concern as to whether you feel wanted on the forum but I believe you are. I am glad you shared your experiences. The rest of us were just sharing ours. NO difference. I am open to yours and hopefully you feel likewise. It is meant to be a supportive community.

soozievt · December 5, 2007, 10:09am

Jacksdad, nobody suggested Fishbowl (who is a she, not a he) leave the forum! She brought up leaving. I read Michael to say that that option exists (for anyone) but that if she has something to contribute, she should. He never suggested that she LEAVE! As Fish would say, “wait a doggone minute!” :)

I don’t want Fish to leave and I highly doubt Michael or anyone else wants her to. Some reacted to her statements and how they came across and she has an opportunity to clarify her views (and she did a bit in her most recent post). She brought up leaving. I don’t think anyone suggested or wants that. If some read viewpoints that seem to be negative about certain types of education/training, they have a right to respond to how they felt it came across. Then the person who wrote those views can respond as to what they meant or didn’t mean.

soozievt · December 5, 2007, 10:13am

NMR…I agree with you that discussion of different points of views is a GOOD thing. We don’t have to all agree. Nobody has to leave because of the differences. Yes, members need to think about “tone” of posts. The internet is just written words and it can be hard to ascertain the entire meaning in this format. When differences arise, some choose to quit. Others choose to try to understand where one another is coming from.

Jacksdad, as NMR posted, challenging points of view can be a positive thing. That’s what happens, in fact, in very stimulating challenging liberal arts courses! :D

soozievt · December 5, 2007, 10:22am

What I think works best on a message forum about colleges is for one to articulate why they chose the school, or type of program that they did. What doesn’t work as well is when people (I’m talking about many people and not a certain person now) post that Acting training is better than MT training or British training is better than American training or stand alone conservatory training is better than a BFA in a university with some liberal arts requirements, or BFAs are better than BAs, or X college is better than Y college and…well, you get the idea. It is better to explain the choices one has made for him/herself and why those choices fit their preferences and share experiences. Problems arise when comparisons crop up of what is better than something else. What is BEST is what is best for oneself. Share an experience, a school, a path and why it has worked well for you and what it is a good choice for yourself. That is an approach that works well on message boards. It is threads that compare what is better, that can be problematic.

NotMamaRose · December 5, 2007, 10:43am

Soozie, I think what we have here is a teensy weensy failure to communicate absolutely clearly because of the medium (email/Internet forum posting) that is being used. Even with liberal use of emoticons :(, it can be hard (as you so wisely pointed out) to truly understand each posting’s tone and shades of meaning. As a result, something may sound elitist, sarcastic, etc. etc. when it wasn’t intended to be at all. It does help if those posting can remember to say something like “It’s my opinion that …” or “In my experience.” However, even when someone neglects to include those “disclaimers,” it would be helpful if we could all give one another the benefit of the doubt and realize (without being told!) that each of us is posting his or her opinion. Thus, if someone says “British training is better than American training,” we can assume that that is the poster’s opinion and carry on from there. That might help us avoid future tense situations and hurt feelings. :)

Tarhunt · December 5, 2007, 10:27pm

This is certainly true to an extent, but let me say that I have worked both coasts and many theaters in between. While there are many theater circuits and pipelines, and they do overlap, there are also many actors who cross the circuits and pipelines. I admit that I have not done this in many years, but I once did, so my experience is not entirely regional. But let me go further to say that I merely gave kudos to the Delaware MFA program. I did not say that it was better than others, though there are certainly some programs that seem to turn out truly awful actors.

I don’t agree that an equally impressive list of North American actors could be generated IF one believes that transformational actors are the best actors. There are clearly a number of “personality” actors in the US who are quite good at what they do, which is being themselves.

As for being Eurocentric, I have said nothing about actors outside the US and UK. I don’t evaluate actors in languages I don’t speak or understand. How could I? Which brings us to the very serious charge of racism. If you can explain how my inability to understand, say, Japanese, and therefore to have no opinion on Japanese actors, is racism, then I will apologize for being a racist.

And what are we supposed to do? Stop talking about art? Would that be a good thing?

Tarhunt · December 5, 2007, 10:29pm

Actually, I have been taught from a very early age by writing teachers that these phrases are bad style, because they are redundant.

CoachC · December 6, 2007, 7:20am

Tarhunt -

You raise an excellent point about the use of qualifying phrases in traditional prose, but I think (aka in my opinion ) that those rules don’t (or at least shouldn’t) apply to internet communication. Again, this is just my opinion, but I was a high school classroom teacher (social studies as well as drama) for 7 years and graded many many mannnnnnnny essays (shudder). I think that the internet is such a powerful communication tool (in it’s immediacy and the breadth of people it reaches) that everything has greater impact than print material and can easily be viewed as “factually” authoritative when in fact they ARE just opinions, regardless of how passionately or authoritatively they’re stated. The qualifying phrases help keep that in perspective for both writer and reader.

We find an interesting parallel to this in my medical voice work, where patients come in having googled things like “diaphragmatic breathing” or “nodes” (both of which are layman’s terms and therefore not likely to yield the most scientifically-supported information). These patients will tell us the “facts” that they have read, which are more often than not at least partially incorrect. But of course the websites they have looked at present all information as “fact.”

Food for thought…

MichaelNKat · December 6, 2007, 7:49am

The point soozievt makes in post #112 is an important one that should not be overlooked. A forum such as this works best when one shares experiences and knowledge without engaging in “better than” comparisons. This thread could have been a great opportunity to discuss the range of liberal arts education available across a broad diversity of MT programs, from pure conservatory to BA degree programs, the depth, weight and priority given to liberal arts at different schools and how the curricula for LA differs at schools. It could have been a great opportunity to discuss the differences that may be found in an acting major curriculum and a MT curriculum and how different MT schools approach acting in the curriculum. It could even have been an opportunity to discuss with some detail what is found in the training offered in the UK and whether those approaches are available in any programs here. All shared with a perspective of one’s personal experience, why one made the choices they did, what one found beneficial and why. All of that would have been informative, interesting as well as worthwhile for those going through the school search process now.

Instead, this thread turned into the old dog food commercial jingle of “My dog’s bigger than your dog, my dog’s smarter than your dog, my dog’s better than your dog 'cause my dog eats Kennel Ration.” (And if you remember that commercial, you’ve just revealed your age .) And sometimes when you mess with someone’s dog, you get into a dog fight.

JIJane · December 6, 2007, 8:30am

QUOTE FISH: “However, from what I gather, a good paying job with health insurance benefits (you’re lucky to not have to worry about that) in corporate America will probably take a lot more than you want to give if you’re trying to pursue an acting career. I know that if I were a management type under the gun, I’d probably think twice about hiring someone who was obviously pursuing other interests. It costs time and money to train people.”

Absolutely, hiring an actor is certainly not a popular opinion held. However, there are always loopholes and ways around things, although admittedly yes, obviously having a role like a bank manager is very hindering to any acting related work! I guess what I was trying to say was that there are other options than just waitressing to pay the bills - many of which you mentioned in your last post.

As for the health insurace - sadly the NHS system (National health insurance) is really not all that up to scratch, so many of us have private insurance anyway. Like myself. Which is also very expensive, like in the US. An example - I am partly privately insured (excluding dentist, psychologist and some other things) and get 10 free physio sessions a year, if I call up I can get an appointment the next day. My friend is on the NHS, where you get unlimited physio for free - however she had to wait 3 months (!) to even get to her first physio session for a very painful back issus. On the NHS there are looong waiting lists for everything, you wait something like a year to see a psychologist, people wait a year or 2 for important vital ops…the idea of the NHS is a good one but sadly the actual practicality of it is currently needing a big revise…

But back to MT and acting. :)

NotMamaRose · December 6, 2007, 8:54am

Thanks to Coach C for backing up this former English major on the advisability of using “In my opinion” in email forums such as this, when neglecting to do so may result (unintentionally, for the most part) in statements that sound pompous or “know-it-all-y.” In other words, when someone says something such as “University XX offers THE best MT training in the world,” it ends up sounding like a statement of fact, rather than opinion, and is bound to raise hackles/hurt feelings/stimulate heated debate from those who do not agree. But if the poster writes “In my opinion, University XX offers THE best MT training in the world,” the effect is different. If the idea of this whole forum is communication, then (in my opinion:)), doing these little things can help facilitate clear communication and decrease the chances that we are misunderstood. Of course, that’s only my opinion. ;)

Tarhunt · December 6, 2007, 8:56am

Jane:

Yep. Not too take this too far off the topic and into healthcare, when you say “expensive,” how expensive do you mean? My brother-in-law pays out of his pocket for insurance for his family of four, and the cost is about $1100 per month. Is that what you pay?

Musical Theater Major or Acting Major?

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