My heart breaks for this boy and his family

Parent Cafe
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<p>This was is so heartbreaking in so many ways… I hope the little boy did not suffer too much in the hands of this monster.</p>

<p>I hope the killer will be tried and punished for his evil deeds. Soozie, I fully agree with you - public execution of a mentally unstable monster will do nothing to deter others like him from commiting horrible crimes. A dangerous individual like him should be locked up for life and never released back into the society. Since he “snapped” once and killed an innocent little kid, there are no guarantees that he will never “snap” again - meds can be flushed down the toilet, and home monitoring can be evaded.</p>

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<p>“He just snapped.” equals the temporary insanity plea.</p>

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<p>From everything I can tell, the guy in question was not a ‘normal’ person who snapped, he apparently had mental health issues since he was a kid (one article said something about being hurt in an accident when he was young) and people who worked with him and knew him said he was kind of strange, among other things, coworkers said he was easy to anger over seemingly nothing and could go into a rage if, for example, someone made a joke at their expense. Quite honestly, there are cases when that happens, when someone who is otherwise normal has been pushed over the edge, but in many of these cases for all the ‘he/she seemed like such a normal person’, you find out there were signs and issues all along that people ignored. </p>

<p>One of the things that saddened me were what some of the people in the Hasidic community were saying, saddened because it is the same kind of belief that leads to something like this. I understand people are horrified that the boy was killed horribly, and it was someone from within their community, but when I hear things like “he really wasn’t one of us” or “he really wasn’t Jewish”, it bothers me. Why? Again, I understand why people would say that, when something like this happens it shakes fundamental beliefs and also feels like they are tainted, but when you say that it is saying in effect that because someone is orthodox Jew, (or Christian of some sort, or whatever) that they aren’t human and can’t do things like this…which is what leads to the kind of trust that allows these things to happen. If a child grows up hearing that members of his/her community are all good and thus can be trusted, the kid is not going to be wary about things that other kids would have been told to worry about. </p>

<p>The analogy someone used to illustrate this was with the case of priests in the Catholic Church, in years before the scandal hit children and their parents were taught to believe that priests were special, that anything they did was beyond suspicion (and in fact, prior to this stuff coming out, few would believe allegations of priestly misconduct and would think the kid was lying), it was trusting that priests were somehow not human and frail, which of course they are anyone else of any background is. (Not ironically, there have been cases within the ultra orthodox community in recent years with similar issues of child abuse by Rabbis and other leaders and much like the attitude of some within the church with priest abuse, the community often refuses to cooperate with the authorities).</p>

<p>My biggest feat about a case like this is it will drive parents who are already scared by the media images of widespread child abuse (many of which are overblown) and it will be like the hysteria over missing kids back in the 80’s, how 50,000 kids a year were being abducted and so forth, that rather then acting rationally it becomes this idea that everything is dangerous and put the kids in swaddling clothing until they are grown. </p>

<p>I am saying this as a parent who probably was more cautious then most, for example we didn’t allow our S to go to a public bathroom alone until he was quite a bit older then most people seem to feel safe (one of the things I find a little ridiculous are rules about children going into the rest room with an opposite sex parent; there is this arbitrary age thing of 6 it seems, and that is way too low to allow a kid to go in by themself IMO). Likewise, we wouldn’t let our kid go to sleepaway camps and such when he was young, until we felt he could handle if an adult tried something inappropriate. That said, wrapping a kid in bubble wrap will hurt them as well, and it is all about balance and also being rational about what to avoid and what not to avoid. And while such a thing can happen anywhere, there are places where it is far more likely to happen then others, if simply population density and access to children is taken into account. For example, molestation is a lot more likely when it involves adult men versus women statistically, and so forth. </p>

<p>We also have to be careful about the 24/7 news cycle and the media hype machine that is very good at making it seem like a bogeyman is under every rock and around every corner, they amplify the horrible stories and make it seem like they are more prevalent, when things like this went on when we were kids, when our parents were kids and so forth, just wasn’t spread out there in living color 24/7. As with the example of the priestly abuse scandal, the initial deflection was this only happened in ‘modern times’, it was the sexual revolution and such that made this happen, but as it has enfolded and older victims have come forth, suddenly we find it was going on as far back as there are living victims and probably was going on for a long time. Human beings don’t change all that much over time, the complaints of people from eras past into antiquity reflect our own and when you have human beings who have positions of power of some sort, especially over children, abuses happen. Keep in mind that also in past times, things like sexual abuse of a child was considered shameful to the victim’s family and kind of like troglodyte tribes that will kill a woman who has been raped, you just didn’t report things like that and have everyone know ‘the shame’, today that taboo isn’t there.</p>

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<p>The local press is beginning to report that the killer had a history of inappropriate interest in little boys and there was likely one more abduction attempt.</p>

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<p>The idea that the death penalty helps is ludicrous. Remember Ted Bundy? One of the worse serial murderers of all time. Which states did he attack in? Towards the end, he intentionally went to states that had the death penalty. He got his high from out smarting all the cops and other experts trying to catch him and the death penalty raised the stakes and made the “game” more exciting for him. One of his most egregious acts–killing all the women in a sorority house at a public university in Florida–was planned precisely because Florida had the death penalty. </p>

<p>The accused was married, albeit briefly. His ex-wife won’t talk about why she divorced him, but she has kids from a previous marriage. She said he was GREAT with her kids–they loved him–and she really has difficulty wrapping her head around the fact he hurt a child. </p>

<p>So, while I shouldn’t play armchair psychologist, I’m going to…Maybe he missed her sons. Maybe he really enjoyed that part of being married to her. He didn’t do well relating to women, apparently, but he DID do well with her children. He probably genuinely enjoyed that part of family life. So, he sees a nice little boy, and he irrationally thinks, here’s a little lost boy I can love and do things with the way I did with my stepsons. He acts on impulse. He has NO idea of sexually molesting the child. He just wants to enjoy having a little boy to talk with again. </p>

<p>So, he takes the child. Then he panics when he realizes that he’s in a lot of trouble. Maybe it even crosses his mind that people will think he’s a pedophile–and he isn’t. He’s “not all there” and he panics and kills the boy. </p>

<p>Maybe his “inappropriate” interest in children wasn’t sexual. Maybe he enjoyed being a stepfather and just wanted to have that sort of relationship with young boys. </p>

<p>That’s the closest I come to be able to figure out the why of this.</p>

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<p>I find this interesting. I consider myself a very cautious parent and my kids were always supervised (you can’t even walk anywhere where I live). However, not only did I go to sleepaway camp for 8 weeks every summer starting at age 8, my own children did too. You mention that your hesitation was if your child could handle an adult doing something inappropriate. But how is sleepaway camp different in that respect? Your child is conceivably with adults at school, soccer, etc. during the regular part of the year. There are adults who do inappropriate things to children everywhere. When I used to teach at our local elementary school, the police came and arrested our school principal for child molestation that he had committed at a previous school AT school. I don’t see how sleepaway camp itself would mean your child would need to learn to handle inappropriate adults any more than in other settings. Just my opinion. As I said, I consider myself a very cautious parent.</p>

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<p>I agree, Music. What happened here is very rare. Most child abductions are family matters. There are far more bad things that are probable than this. </p>

<p>Though, yes, in retrospect, things about this man can be listed and be categorized as something funky, there are many, many people, in fact maybe most people, for whom the same can be done who never come anywhere close to snapping like he did. The question is whether the picture is truly unusual, and from what the police have said, the suspect is atypical of those who commit this sort of thing and it is a true puzzle. From what the press has released of the case, I see it the same way. It’s not a huge surprise though no less horrifying when someone who has hurt others before and had pedophile tendencies does something like this, but he does not fit the profile. I doubt he has killed other kids in the past, as there simply are not that many disappeared kid cases. Though the police are searching the house and yard, there is no anticipation that anything else will be found as was the case of some serial killer types whose grounds were searched in the past. </p>

<p>One of those scary, unpredictable things.</p>

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<p>I had a HS classmate (my then-lab partner in a science class, actually) who “just snapped” and killed 4 family members one morning in quite brutal ways: a hatchet, strangulation, beating with a hammer. He was found not guilty be reason of insanity without going to trial and confined to a state psychiatric facility. There is some reason to believe that he may have killed a young girl prior to that–the only other murder in our town for decades, and the family in question had been his next door neighbors shortly before her death…a huge coincidence–but there was no real evidence.</p>

<p>We assumed that he would be incarcerated for life, but I heard recently that he was released a number of years ago and is living in a nearby state and is actually married. Frankly, it freaks me out.</p>

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<p>When people say he could have just snapped, I happen to believe that there had to be existing mental disorders in order for that to happen, even if he had not done anything as serious as this before. The sickness manifested itself in other ways prior to this. Mentally healthy people do not do this kind of thing. </p>

<p>Actually, Levi Aron’s ex-wife had a restraining order of protection from him at one time. He also was being treated for mental illness in the past. This is not surprising.</p>

<p>[Murder</a> Suspect Levi Aron Used to Beat Ex-wife](<a href=“http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/181333/20110716/levi-aron-leiby-kletzky-mentally-ill-psychologically-unfit-kill-murder-dismember.htm]Murder”>Murder Suspect Levi Aron Used to Beat Ex-wife | IBTimes)</p>

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<p>However, it is rather odd that in a TV interview of the ex-wife, when she heard of the Brooklyn murder and that her ex was the suspect and admitted to the crime…she said it was “out of character” for him. Granted his prior actions were not of this severity, but he doesn’t sound like he was a squeaky clean mentally healthy person either.</p>

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<p>From records I’ve seen of many young people and knowing what happens in divorce proceedings, this is not a red flag record. All sorts of stories are now coming out on what a child stalker he was, but I tend to think that whatever issues he had were well buried until this month. </p>

<p>What to do with someone like this? Should not let him out as he clearly poses danger to others. Could not predict his proclivities so I don’t see how anyone can proclaim him safe, ever. Definitely, a life time lock up as NY is not a death penalty state.</p>

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<p>Soozie,</p>

<p>When I heard her interviewed, his ex-wife didn’t say he was a “squeaky clean mentally healthy person.” In fact, she definitely implied quite the opposite. She did say that she never worried about her children and that he was very good with them. She said it was “out of character” for him to hurt a child. </p>

<p>Heck, even in the report you quote, she says he used profanity in front of the children. She claims he hit her–she doesn’t claim he hit the kids or directed profanity at them. It’s evident that he was threatening her for refusing to have sex with him–there’s no claim that he had any “inappropriate” sexual interest in her kids.</p>

<p>There are many, many cases of husbands who abuse their wives but are otherwise good fathers. It’s a different relationship. I’m not a psychiatrist nor a psychologist, but my understanding is that that’s especially true when the children are male. There are a lot of men who have “issues” with women who have no problem relating to other men and male children and are ONLY abusive to females.</p>

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<p>Jonri, your “figuring” is probably as close to what anyone is going to get. Which what makes this so scary. If he had a long rap sheet and major problems with complaints galore, one can sort of see what happened. But he really is well within the realms of normalcy in terms of this sort of thing. He is “weird” from what all say, and not very swift in his thinking, but functional in everyday life. Until this.</p>

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<p>cptofthehouse, I agree there was no red flag to predict this guy could do something this horrific. I wasn’t saying that. I was saying that it appears that some mental illness underpinnings existed for this man prior to this recent incident. </p>

<p>jonri, I totally agree that there are many men who abuse their wives who are wonderful fathers and have never abused children. I was just saying that this person did not have a totally clean record of behavior overall in that a restraining order of protection was given against him and he had been medicated for mental illness. He also urinated in public. NONE of these things means that everyone who does such things goes on to murder little children!!! I’m just saying that most people who commit murder are not entirely mentally healthy people (or they wouldn’t do it). And it appears that this man has some background of issues beyond normal healthy behaviors. But nobody would then say these behaviors turn into murderers or that anyone could ever predict this man would do such a thing . But I find it pretty typical that a criminal has some “mental issues” of some sort before committing such a crime and is not totally a healthy person.</p>

<p>By the way, you say this man was functional in every day life. I agree. But many people who have mental illnesses are very functional and even professional. That doesn’t make them entirely “normal.”</p>

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<p>I know this neighborhood quite well, and it is so tragic and so random that this young boy happened to ask this particular man for help… but knowing this neighborhood as well as I do as well as the Orthodox Hasidic community, I can tell you that this young boy was not old enough to walk this distance alone, even just to cross 13th Avenue is a nightmare and an accident waiting to happen -filled with double parked cars, schoolbuses, people juggling six or more kids, and a good deal of traffic with people not obeying traffic regulations, talking on their cellphones while driving. Every year it seems there is a tragic accident of unsupervised kids being hit by cars and schoolbuses. I would doubt that this boy was at all schooled in stranger danger and what to do in an emergency-look for a police officer, go into a store,etc. The Hasidim do not engage with the rest of the world-there is no TV, newspapers or radio. Many families do not speak to their children in English, only in Yiddish. He picked the wrong person and his family and the community are left to deal with this horrible, horrible tragedy.</p>

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<p>I don’t blame the parents. Not one bit. Many very good parents make a decision that is not right for their child many times. Whether he should have been permitted to make the trek alone or not, whether it is a mistake or not has been overcome by the events that followed. Clearly in retrospect, it was the wrong thing to have done. </p>

<p>What concerns me are those out there like Levi Aron, that are so fragile that such sequence of events can trigger a killing of a child.</p>

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<p>Soozie, </p>

<p>I don’t disagree with most of your post, but there are some things I disagree with. </p>

<p>1) I don’t know how it works in Tennessee, but in NY, you can get a restraining order against someone by alleging that he assaulted you or threatened you with bodily harm. You do NOT have to PROVE anything to get one. Go back and read the threads about the UVa Lacrosse murders to see a discussion of that. </p>

<p>2) I know several men who have had arrests for public urination in NYC who are perfectly good people. You see, it’s not all that easy to find a clean public restroom in some parts of NYC late at night or early in the morning. (I suspect that at night the neighborhood he lived in would be one of those. )They take a chance–and are unlucky enough to get caught by the cops. I’m not condoning the behavior–just saying that this is one of the offenses for which context matters. (It used to happen a lot in my neighborhood because during some seasons there were NO public restrooms open on Sunday. Through the years, I rescued a lot of young, distraught moms with young kids who approached me and asked me where there was a restroom. I took them into a public meeting room in my building which has a restroom or down to the laundry room, which does too. And, believe me, I am violating the rules of my building by doing that.) Heck, where but NYC would there be a BOOK which maps out clean public restrooms you can take kids to? So, context matters. </p>

<p>3)

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<p>It’s nice to pretend that only mentally ill people kill people. It’s simply not true. In this case, it’s probable that the accuser has some mental health issues. However, there are plenty of sane people who kill people. Some are career criminals–you really think the guys who kill for the mob, e.g., those in “Murder, Inc.” are all insane? Do you think that the drug dealers who kill people to protect their “markets” are all insane? Lets assume for the moment that Casey Anthony DID kill her child. Do you think she’s insane? A pathological liar? Maybe. Insane? No, IMO. When the Soviet troops who invaded Germany at the end of World War II raped ,mutilated and murdered German women and, yes, many children, were all of them insane? Umm…that would be a no. (Hey, I’m not saying that’s not understandable, given what the Russians had suffered at German hands. I’m just saying that the Soviet troops who raped and killed little German kids weren’t all insane.) </p>

<p>Why is this important? I think you are doing what some of the Hasidim are doing in this case. They are making evil into “the other.” He was “not really one of us.” You are saying, “he killed this child; therefore, he MUST be insane.” Um…no…I don’t think so.</p>

<p>There IS evil in this world. Human beings can do terrible things. I don’t believe that most of the bad things that people do to one another are the result of insanity. I do NOT think that “most” murders are committed by people who are mentally ill.</p>

<p>And, I do believe, very strongly, that MOST people who have mental health problems are NOT insane. The terms are FAR from interchangeable.</p>

<p>Thus, respectfully, and I mean that…I find your attitude a VERY dangerous one for society. In formulating our laws and punishments, we have to recognize that there ARE people who are EVIL. And, secondly, we cannot assume that people who are socially awkward or mentally ill are the ones who are most likely to commit horrible crimes.</p>

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<p>jonri, first, let me clarify that in no way do I think the history of public urination is key at all. Really I don’t. I was just stating many things known so far in terms of any run-ins with the law. But the bigger point for me was that it appears he has a history of mental illness and was under medication for it. I also realize that one can obtain a restraining order without proof, but typically one seeks such an order with SOME cause, particularly against their own spouse. </p>

<p>You then go on to talk about “insane people.” I was not talking about insanity! I was talking about any kind of mental health issue, not necessarily insanity. You don’t have to be insane to kill someone! But often someone who commits murder has mental health issues. I am not saying all mentally ill people are murders whatsoever. But I think some propensity for some sort of mental illness is there that allows someone to behave in this fashion (to kill another). But some mental illness is not the same as saying “insanity.” I didn’t say this man was insane. I said it was not surprising that he may have suffered some type of mental illness that colored his actions. It just wasn’t rational. But I agree with you that “sane” people do kill others. I wasn’t talking about insane vs. sane people. I was saying that some kind or level of mental illness is often a part of the behavior that allows someone to commit heinous acts. Such acts are not really typical of people who are very healthy mentally. For example, a person with anger management issues may lose control. A depressed person may do things that he/she wouldn’t do if not depressed. A borderline personality person may react in certain ways that a healthy person may not. I just don’t think 100% mentally healthy people commit murders. I think there is something mentally wrong with a person who makes such a choice. But I didn’t say that this means they are “insane.”</p>

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<p>In any case, I was talking about THIS man (Levi Aron) and not all murderers originally. I was saying I wasn’t surprised if he has some history of mental illness, which has been reported. </p>

<p>For example, it doesn’t seem like he originally intended to murder this boy. His story is that once he discovered people were conducting a massive search for the boy, he panicked and killed him. But rational thought would be to release him and that the consequences for kidnapping, if discovered, are not as heavy as for murder. If he was worried about being charged with kidnapping, what did he think would happen if charged with murder? Further, he did not even cover up the murder but left the child’s bloody body parts in his own home. He even led detectives to the crime when they came to his house and did not deny it (wasn’t even covering it up). None of this appears to be rational thought.</p>

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<p>And, I firmly reject that. </p>

<p>I also reject your view that he killed the boy because he wasn’t thinking rationally. I think he was. if he released the boy, he would get caught. Kidnapping is a crime. He knew that. So, he knew that if he released the boy, he would be caught and punished. </p>

<p>He wanted to avoid that. So, he killed the boy. He thought he would have a better chance of escaping punishment if he did that. I don’t think that thinking is the least bit irrational–not in the least. It was perfectly true. </p>

<p>He had not yet had the chance to cover up the murder. He only left SOME of the body parts in his own home. His plan was to dismember the body so as to make it easier to dispose of it–which doesn’t sound irrational to me either.(This man had worked as a meat cutter.So, I suspect that he knew more about how to dismember a body that most people do.) He had filled a small suitcase with body parts and placed it in a dumpster some distance from his home, where he knew it would be disposed of after the weekend. </p>

<p>He planned to take several such trips. </p>

<p>He froze the remaining body parts, so that they would not smell and attract attention when he did remove them from his home. Sound irrational to you? Not to me. </p>

<p>Look the cops got incredibly lucky. There happened to be a surveillance camera where poor little Leiby waited for seven minutes. The cops were able to tell that a man talked to him and then went into the dentist office. They knew precisely what time he entered the dentist office. They got his name pretty quickly. </p>

<p>The case broke in just a few days. Had it taken a week, those body parts would not have been in the suspect’s home. </p>

<p>Personally, I don’t think it’s at all irrational for someone to think that if he released the child, he was certain to be caught and punished. "If I kill the child and dispose of the body, I may get away with it. I’ll take the one chance I see to escape punishment. "</p>

<p>So, again, I just disagree with you. I think his behavior was rational.Despicable–but rational.</p>

<p>And not even covering up the crime? The door was open because it was a hot night and he lived in an attic apartment without air conditioning.(So, freezing the remaining body parts so they wouldn’t decay and smell was wholly rational behavior.) The cops went in. One said “You know why we are here? Where is the boy?” If he refused to answer, they would have searched the apartment. There was blood on the kitchen counter and on the refrigerator door. There was NO way he could cover it up. He knew he was caught. He nodded to the kitchen. The jig was up. </p>

<p>Again, I am HORRIFIED by what happened. I just don’t buy your arguments.</p>

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<p>I agree with you, Jonri. He was scared that he was going to get into trouble for kidnapping the boy, and if he had gotten rid of the evidence, the chances of getting caught without those cameras being there, would have been very small. </p>

<p>The entire thought process he had is frighteningly like that of many people I know who have issues socially, emotionally and pragmatically. They are a little bit off but can function. They also have been punished by many for their bad decisions and are truly scared of future transgressions. What bothers me is the jump from that point to the solution. I am assuming that he did not have some other motives in keeping the boy which may well come into the picture as more info is released, but for some reason, I don’t think he was a sexual predator. </p>

<p>I don’t think the insanity plea is going to hold water since he clearly knew what he did was wrong and that is the litmus test. The question is what our society should do with someone like this. Can’t let him loose. I am not into punishment as much as protection of society from those who can’t abide by the rules. In a case like this one, where it is clear that this person has the capacity to kill a little boy and then chop up his body (it takes some additional craziness to do that, in my opinion), there is too much risk to ever let someone like this on the loose. This is where the DP could come into play in my opinion, though it won’t for him. </p>

<p>In addition to the innocence of the victim which wrenches everyone’s heart, the other frightening thing is that he does not fit any profile of someone who would do something like this.</p>