My lazy American students (Boston Globe)

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<p>Oh, no, I didn’t mean to say that because I write on stationery, I’m anti-technology in any way. I carry my iPhone around and will duck behind a column to check Facebook, e-mail, voicemail, etc. I’m just saying that I’m a super-crazy old-school pink lemonade etiquette snob, and people who sit through dinners and spend the whole time with their laps awkwardly glowing into their downcast faces are a pet peeve of mine. Reading a book at the table is the same sort of thing (though as a kid, I used to get yelled at for that all the time); I just think that more people have their iPhones and Blackberries readily available nowadays, so the problem is more pervasive.</p>

<p>Nothing against the technological era and gadgetry. I’m an engineer, after all! ;)</p>

<p>I haven’t read all of the posts on this thread yet, but I agree with the person who brought up self-selection. I’m a high school teacher and have been researching teaching abroad. Many of the American college teachers or ESL teachers in China complain about college students’ laziness. It seems the Chinese kids study like crazy to make the cut for college and then “expect” to coast through university and do very little. The Chinese kids who make the cut for college and make the cut to come to America to study (or their parents uproot home and family to move to America for better educational and economic opportunities) are clearly going to be more motivated to work hard.</p>

<p>"As a college student myself, it is easy to “cheat” on homework but when it comes to taking the exam there is virtually no way to cheat. "</p>

<p>I give a midterm take - home exam so that I don’t have to eliminate subject material because the time is being taken up with an in-class exam. Students cheat on this as well as on the homework. The final is in class and since they are not allowed to have calculators, computers or cell phones, and its an open book exam, its difficult to cheat.</p>

<p>I notice some Asian bashing in this thread. If you look a SAT scores, Asians as a group are generally higher than other groups. Are you saying that they cheat on SATs too? I sense some sour grapes here.</p>

<p>i think i read it somewhere that even Canadian internationals score slightly better than domestic americans.
it probably does not have much to do with cultures, but rather the fact that they are international.
first of all, internatioanl probably have paid more to come- higher tuition, travelling expenses, etc; in other cases, they must have worked harder in order to get in (most of the times both apply). in other words, they are that good from the very beginning, coming to the states with better work habit, good motives, therefore better preparation.</p>

<p>well as for kids coming from other continents, their school systems might have been more rigorous or they had higher a value put on education(again, it might be both).</p>

<p>It’s funny; as high school seniors, the top 5 of the class (myself included) joke around about what caused us to get the rank was procrastination, collaboration, and the occasional studying. The AP Bio and AP Chem kids divide and conquer, so to say, all the worksheets their teacher (same one for both) gives them. The two girls who did this most often both received 5s on their AP Bio exams, and it is looking very probable for AP Chem, as well.</p>

<p>In my school, taking study halls lowers class rank, so if you’re involved in a lot of ECs, you end up struggling with time to do all your work. So collaboration is very enticing to many.</p>

<p>A lot of people here seemed shocked that students collaborate on take-home tests… while I’m still in high school (and I’m not saying it won’t be different in college), it is naturally assumed when a teacher gives a take-home test, there will be a meeting at Panera bread that night to work on it. “Take-home test” is almost synonymous with “partner test.”</p>

<p>Oh, and we have no Asian kids at our school. We’re probably the whitest part of America you’ve ever seen (unfortunately).</p>

<p>“It seems she doesn’t realize that her international students are probably much more motivated than their compatriots.” Negotiator1225</p>

<p>It seems you don’t realize that that’s the whole point of the article.</p>

<p>I haven’t read all of the 10-page discussion but I’d like to add my 2 cents about cheating.</p>

<p>A couple pages back, there were posts talking about how Chinese and Indian students cheat frequently. These students come from the two most populous countries in the world. I can’t speak about India, but in China there’s a limited amount of spaces in colleges and a heckuva lot of competitors. Parents often push children to get ahead by any means necessary because otherwise they won’t get a chance to succeed. It’s likely that some of those who come abroad here have brought that practice with them. My dad came to the U.S. to study from China 24 years ago and I can assure you that he did not engage in any cheating. He worked as a tutor and graded papers to stay afloat. He says that some students (nationality not mentioned) would come in for tutoring on their homework and wrote down what he said. He’d later find his exact words on the homework they turned in. He said this would also happen in essays and tests and he also often found two or more people with the same answers. Unfortunately, he wasn’t in a position to fail them for academic dishonesty.</p>

<p>I’ve seen this myself. I observed a group of students - five, I think, and all American - cheating on our midterm and final exams. The midterm was a little chit-chatting about the problem. I thought that was bad until our final exam. The professor left to fetch something he’d forgotten and left a tutor for the math lab in charge. Right when he was out the door, the five students started asking each other how to do the problems. They showed each other their work and asked the tutor how to do the problems. Instead of stopping it, he answered their questions with a lot more information than he should’ve been giving out for an exam. I overheard one of their questions: “Wait, how do you simplify 6/24?”. This was a college-level algebra class and a student had to ask how to simplify fractions? A friend of mine finished the exam before me and bumped into the teacher on her way out, telling him about a group of cheaters. (She couldn’t be specific because she didn’t know their names.) One of the cheaters happened to walk out after her and when she heard, she mouthed off to my friend. When the teacher entered the room again, he handed the tutor what he’d gone out for. It was a letter of recommendation praising him. The whole ordeal disgusted me. </p>

<p>Cheating is universal, of course, but some circumstances encourage it more than others.</p>

<p>At the international high school that my kids have attended in a European country, there are plenty of American students along with many from the host country and about a third from all other parts of the world. There are highly motivated and not so motivated kids from all over. There are also plenty of cheaters from all cultures as well. My Ds have told me stories that drive me crazy and I blame the school and teachers for allowing the cheating to become part of the environment. I strongly believe that cheating is contagious, and kids that would never do it in most circumstances, can’t resist when they see a lot of fellow students getting away with it and benefiting from it. While some students haven’t had the ethics drilled into them as much as others and are not bothered by taking liberties in school work, even kids who know it’s wrong figure that everyone is doing it and it’s the only way to stay competitive.
I think it’s is absolutely the teachers’ responsibility to be more vigilant. It is not a question of stronger punishments or morality lectures, both of which the school has used to address the issue, but of nipping the problem in the bud by enforcing strict methods of proctoring, checking homework for non-original work and not being afraid to question and challenge students constantly if there is any suspicion. I believe eliminating the opportunity is the best, and easiest way to go, and yet it seems some teachers cannot be bothered with the extra stress this might bring. Kids, especially the competitive ones, will do the work if they think there is no other way around it. In any culture, I think whether kids cheat is a matter of opportunity and habit. I wish honor codes worked but I feel it is unfair and unrealistic to rely on them.</p>

<p>Btw, I otherwise am very happy with this school and most of the teachers are wonderful, this is just one issue that really gets my goat.</p>

<p>The problem as others have pointed out is generalizing, without looking at context or the realities. Statements like “Asian students cheat” or “American Students are lazy” are slogans that are empty of meaning.</p>

<p>The reality is many of the Asian students we are talking about either are coming from overseas, where competition is more then fierce and where getting to a US university is considered the pinnacle of success by many. Thus, what you see in colleges are kids who have had to work their tail off, who have had to be hyper competitive to get anywhere…</p>

<p>Other kids of Asian background could be either immigrant children or first generation born here, and like many immigrants, there is a tremendous culture that doing well in school is the way to succeed. The fact that someone immigrates makes them very different then those who chose to stay at home, it already is someone driven by some need to move, to a ‘better place’, and that takes work, it takes facing hardship and so forth. Go back 70 years or more, and you would be substituting Jewish kids for Asian (or other ethnic groups). These kids are pushed and pushed (and in some ways, that may not exactly be the best thing), driven to get high grades and such, and it shows in how they do in school (though what we don’t hear about is what happens to these kids in their lives, do they succeed, do they end up being happy, and how many of them end up paying a price for that pressure, including suicide?). </p>

<p>One of the interesting things I hear from Asian friends of mine, who were of the first generation track, is that their kids are not the same, which doesn’t surprise me, they tend to be more like other ‘native born Americans’, though how much of the culture they hold and whatnot varies.Often I hear complaints, half serious, half joking, that they have learned to be lazy, yet most of these kids, though they may not be right there at the top, end up going to good schools and doing well…</p>

<p>There also are other factors with Asian immigrants that are part of the culture of the countries they came from. In China and India and Japan (least according to what I have read) a lot is based on exams, on competitive exams getting you to the next level, and that what really matters is getting to the highest level at each step.In Japan, at least when I was studying their culture in grad school course in the mid 90’s, the big achievement was to get into a top flight university (public, interestingly enough, were the premiere schools), and after getting in they kind of glided, because what mattered was getting to that school, that decided their careers for them often, it set up the basis for future success. And everything was based on these exams, not really in learning, but memorizing to do well in the exams…so it is not surprising that kids from these cultures have the impetus to get high grades which in turn means high grades on tests, it is what they have known the whole time. </p>

<p>The other thing to keep in mind, as others have alluded, is that in these countries getting to college is a big deal, they are populous, and a large part of the population doesn’t have the resources to send their kid to school, let alone college, so in getting the chance these kids know how rare it is, how hard it is and what a gift it is. Despite what you hear on the news, a relatively small percentage of kids in these countries ever make it to college, and what we are seeing is often the cream of the crop, no matter what college we are talking about that they get into. </p>

<p>In a country like the US, where despite all the ills, we have a universal education system that delivers a decent education to a lot of kids, where the opportunities are not so limited (just look at the number of public and private universities there are in this country, it is staggering). Because of that, because there has been access to a lot of kids to college, there just isn’t that incredible competition…or the feeling like that if I don’t get into an ivy league college, my life is over, it just isn’t like that for a lot of kids, and in reality there is truth to that, that going to a non ivy doesn’t mean your life is relegated to working at Wal Mart, it doesn’t work like that. </p>

<p>Also, US culture is kind of mixed when it comes to grades in school and learning. Are high grades really the be all and end all? Does having straight A’s in college really translate into reality of success?Obviously, when it comes to programs like med school, where competition is fierce, it does mean something, but there are a lot of students who come out with 4.0 GPA’s who end up in dead end jobs or not doing well, and kids with less stellar GPA’s who go on to fly; there are some billionaires who never bothered to finish college, or who had C’s in college. To them, getting the straight A’s might not mean as much as to a kid from a different culture, and sometimes getting straight A’s means you are great at spitting back what professors want but can’t otherwise get the job done…not saying it is an excuse to be lazy, just contrasting attitudes.</p>

<p>As far as cheating and corruption goes, I think you have to be careful there. I have a cousin who made pretty good money when he was at an IVY league college writing term papers for what are known as the ‘legacy students’, the 20% who get admitted even at Ivies because their grandad went there, donated a library, etc, and besides the ‘gentleman’s C’s’ these scions get, they cheat all the time to get through, where either they don’t have to worry about making a living or have jobs lined up for them…I am sure kids looking for edges in places like China and India have resorted to cheating, but is it all? No,not even close. </p>

<p>Is bribery practiced, to get better grades,to get into a school, in those societies? I have heard stories, that may or may not be apocryphal, that there are professors and admissions people who expect to get bribed to help kids get admitted or get a better grade, that in some cases it is expected by all parties (very much like the buildings departments in many large towns and cities). Because universities there are competitive, and salaries are relatively low, and follow bureacratic systems, it is more then likely that bribery do goes on I would speculate. In a more first hand account, Dorothy Delay at Juilliard spoke to the author about kids coming in from Asia, trying to get into her studio, and having some of them try to bribe her and explaining to her after she turned them down that it was common practice back home, that in more then a few cases it was the only way to get admittance to a school or a teachers studio or get a recommendation, etc…so I am sure it goes on, but I think broadly using that to paint Asians as likely to cheat is way over the falls (and in effect, what is a kid from a rich family getting into Harvard or Yale because his family went there and presumably gives a lot of money to the school, but another form of bribe?). </p>

<p>Does this mean that there aren’t (maybe more then a few) lazy American students? No. Does this mean that all students from Asia cheat, or none of them do? No. What it means is that you have to be careful about what people generalize about, that stereotypes, while they have generally some basis in fact, don’t tell a complete picture. There are a ton of hardworking kids out there who get into top level schools and really distinguish themselves, there are non Asians working everything they can to try and get into music (a field not known for being a warm mistress), at levels that would make anyone’s eyes open, there are tons of Asians kids we never see who don’t do well in school, there are kids who graduate from colleges in India who don’t seem to know a hell of a lot…but accounts like this in a sense are the pits, because they are trying to use one fact (that the kids in their class who do well are Asian) and contrast it to the American kids in the class to claim that this proves something, when all it proves is that the teacher and the writer of the article better not move into research, because their method frankly stinks. Maybe the kids in her English class are low achievers, maybe the high achievers take other classes, maybe the school enrolls a lot of kids because they have to fill a lot of slots and have more then a few ill prepared students…point is, that one class doesn’t make a rule, and you have to look at all sides and investigate before claiming anything.</p>

<p>I’m coming late to this discussion, but upon clicking the original link, I noticed that the author has now written a follow-up of her article, responding to a deluge of comments that the article elicited. Here is one interesting part:</p>

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<p>Here is a link to the follow-up article:</p>

<p>[Lazy</a> American Students: After the Deluge - Wellesley - Your Town - Boston.com](<a href=“http://www.boston.com/yourtown/news/wellesley/2009/12/lazy_american_students_after_t.html]Lazy”>http://www.boston.com/yourtown/news/wellesley/2009/12/lazy_american_students_after_t.html)</p>

<p>ETA: I must say I am horrified by the number of people on this thread who claim that cheating is common on college campuses. I am utterly horrified. Seriously. Horrified.</p>

<p>In my college, it’s a focus on entertainment rather than academics. Past freshman year I see scholars who grow up a little, at least enough to study and do well in their classes. I motivate/yell at/study with my friends, who are perfectly nice people and work just as hard as I do, and I think they just need a little motivation to focus.</p>

<p>ALSO, very very important, I’ve found that people from overseas KNOW HOW TO TAKE TESTS. Where I lived, students lived to pass ‘exams’. In America we don’t focus so much on simply studying material for a life-altering test. My friends have just as much grasp of the material as I do - but when test time comes, they can’t transfer that knowledge the test!</p>

<p>My D had this teacher for the Fall semester and liked her very much, but my D was disappointed in the article, felt it wasn’t true for her section. According to D, many of the international students, (Babson has tons) come to class unprepared or worse often don’t come to class at all. She didn’t understand how the teacher/writer had drawn her conclusions.</p>

<p>I think she felt the teacher stereotyped many of the students and she ended up feeling a little deceived. If this teacher has preformed opinions of her students does that effect her grading?</p>

<p>I went back to school mid career to earn a second degree in Electrical Engineering. I don’t know how much cheating went on, I only saw it once when a prof caught somebody with notes in the middle of an exam. I honestly can’t remember the person’s ethnicity.</p>

<p>I am one who doesn’t like to stereoptype, however I am sure there are some customs common in different cultures that are not common in the “American” culture. Whatever that means really in this day and age of the true “mixing pot”. In my program, well over 50% of the students, probably well over 80%, were Asian, Indian, or some sort of mid-Eastern or Northern African. I have no idea if they were international, first generation, or from a family that came over in the 1800s. One thing I did notice is that they seemed to be more likely to collaborate and work in groups. Not cheating, but they would work together on HW, study together on exams, etc. If somebody’s brother from two years ago had the same teacher and access to some sample tests, they would share them. This was not prohibited by the classes as far as I could tell, and I looked on it as a good thing. They seemed to learn the material well.</p>

<p>Plus, it was not like they excluded, at least as far as I saw. When I befriended a couple in class they asked me to join their group, but that just wasn’t my style. Maybe it’s my “American individualism” thing (I’m joking). More it was because I was older, working, and with a family and didn’t really have time to plan out meeting with them. But they did better than I did, and it might have been because of this type of thing.</p>

<p>Funny, when I got my Physics degree 15 years earlier I think it was probably 80% Caucasion, Native born American, and none of us worked together unless forced to. Well, those are my experiences. YMMV.</p>

<p>Ha Ha…the lazy ones get into Yale though.</p>

<p>I have to disagree with what he says. Internationals may just seem that way because the more selective universities can take up the better domestic students, while even really competitive internationals may have to settle for something less selective. His counterexample to that is not very convincing: saying that Americans PERFORM worse doesn’t say anything about their work ethic.</p>

<p>It’s really not fair to suggest that American students don’t work as hard as their international intellectual equals. I mean, obviously there may be some who don’t, but anecdotal evidence from experience in universities where international applicants are more competitive and have to be more competitive to get in hardly justifies his stance.</p>

<p>Since this discussion has (somehow) ended up being about cheating and not work ethic, I’ll throw in my two cents. My University has a very large number of International or American-born Asian and South Asian/Indian students, many of whom are majoring in the hard sciences or engineering with the intention of going into medicine or research fields. However, I have witnessed very few instances of cheating in this demographic, which seems to be contrary to what many posters have experienced. These students work incredibly hard to get ahead, often because (as many posters have already said) they worked their butts off to get to where they are. They do feel pressure from their families because, in many cases, their parents have gone through a lot to be in a position where their children can go on to higher education at a prestigious school. (However, that is true for many students of all ethnicities.)</p>

<p>I think a lot of the “Asian-bashing” is a result of sour grapes, because the Asian students I know tend to do very well (and rarely as a result of cheating). Cheating can only get you so far before it bites you in the butt. You have to know the concepts to succeed, and they’re usually not simple enough to fit on an index card stuffed up your sleeve. In my experience, the students that cheat do it out of desperation because they’ve spent the semester messing around instead of studying - and I’ll agree with the author of the original article in saying that they’re often the typical American white kid. In case you’re wondering, I’m the typical American white kid, too (just not a cheater). Obviously you can’t stereotype an entire race, and neither I nor the author am trying to do that. I’ve seen international students go on AcPro and get kicked out, and I’ve seen plenty of white-bread kids do extremely well. But it’s silly to say there are no trends, or to get touchy about it when somebody points them out.</p>

<p>It’s the new (or perhaps continuing) sport. To critique “american” students, regardless of their level. In the author’s critique the sport includes Yale applicants, and perhaps Yale students.</p>

<p>My observation is different. There is no shortage of students, especially those immersed in the culture (i.e. “natives”), who drift somewhat in high school and in college. This to some of us is called “growth”, and “adjustment” to becoming an adult. Then there are students new to the culture who’s life experience is such that this growth is deferred, sometime because career is everything to them, or is what is most “tangible” in their lives.</p>

<p>The challenge of teachers is to recognize these differences and manage them, and not to critique them.</p>

<p>My sense is that the teacher who wrote the Globe articles has yet to learn how to manage the mixture of backgrounds in her class. Her article reflects what seems like frustration. I can only hope that she will learn how to channel this frustration to becoming a teacher with a deeper understanding of her students, and on how to reach them, and perhaps on how to let them be.</p>

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<p>What “trend”? All I see are anecdotes. Some people come up here and say that they’ve seen white American kids cheat, and some people come up here and say that they’ve seen lots of Asians cheat. I’m not saying that you guys are lying because I don’t think you are, but a couple of examples isn’t a trend that you can extrapolate for all the colleges in the world.</p>

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<p>Excuse me? Maybe this was taken out of context or something, but I personally find that kind of offensive. ^^ Explain, please.</p>