Navy's Owens recommended for expulsion

Wheelah44 · April 2, 2007, 12:02am

junebug, i’m sorry but oh please. there is a reason that in a civil trial a victim’s past sexual history is disallowed: whether or not she was a flirt has nothing to do with whether or not she was raped. i also find it really nice that i see no posts describing what lamar was like when he was drunk. convenient. there is one truth: THIS SYSTEM punished (and continues to punish) her far more than the conduct system ever could. and as for the allegations of an alcohol problem…half the brigade would ‘not be fit to be an a command position’ if we were all judged by those standards. how about you replace ‘accuser’ with ‘victim’ a couple of times. maybe keep in mind that they are both people, with lives that have been ruined. absolutely disgusting.

USNA69 · April 2, 2007, 7:09am

That would make it extremely difficult to make any sense whatsoever of the narrative since I have already replaced ‘accused’ with ‘victim’.

Yes, but one is being offered a second chance. The other, for the exact same offense, is not.

Zaphod · April 2, 2007, 3:18pm

I am no fan of rapists. If I posted here what I believe should be done to them, I’d be banned. Believe me, it is long, painful, and terminal. :mad:

However, far too many times it has come to pass that the allegation of “rape” was less than factual. Was this one of them? Who knows? None of us were there.

What does stand, however, is that neither of these Mids behaved in a manner even remotely close to what USNA standards are supposed to be. Accusations were hurled and found to be false. Others could be neither proven nor disproven. Still others stood on their own merit without need for an argument.

I use the word “victim” only when it applies. Was this woman the victim of a rape? Not according to the court. Sure, that doesn’t establish whether it ACTUALLY did or ACTUALLY didn’t happen, but we’ve got to go by the law, here. Let’s fail on the side of caution: If we assume the rape ACTUALLY happened, then she is a victim of rape. That doesn’t exonerate her from her failure to show good judgement in that she got so drunk out of her mind that she blacked out. Is that illegal? No, but it doesn’t give her a blank check, either.

So, as USNA 69 wrote, we have a situation now where two people are guilty of the same thing but are being treated differently. Where is the justice in that?

Personal responsibility cannot be tossed away just because one was drunk.

GreatAmerican · April 2, 2007, 6:33pm

Morrison accused of indecent assault

Published in the Annapolis Capital:

<a href=“Real Estate – Capital Gazette”>Real Estate – Capital Gazette;

rwheeler · April 2, 2007, 8:19pm

“If we assume the rape ACTUALLY happened, then she is a victim of rape. That doesn’t exonerate her from her failure to show good judgement in that she got so drunk out of her mind that she blacked out. Is that illegal? No, but it doesn’t give her a blank check, either.”

Z - What exactly do you mean by “blank check” in the above? Does it mean that the victim is complicit somehow in the rape? Maybe not legally but morally?

USNA69 · April 2, 2007, 9:20pm

Let’s not get off track here. The court martial determined that it was not rape but consensual sex. This is not about what might have been or what could have been but what the court martial found which was not guilty.

The Kenny Morrison court martial is stacking up to be another of the same ilk. The BS is going to have a field day.

Zaphod · April 2, 2007, 9:41pm

What I mean is that all too often people decide, “Well, she was raped”, so that somehow gives the victim a blank check on having been drunk, or hanging out with the wrong crowd, or whatever.

Does that mean she “asked” for the rape? Of course not. However, you can’t just gloss over her actions, either. If you want to call that “having some moral responsibility”, it’ll suit me because it’s accurate.

In this case, this Midshipman drank so much that she blacked out. I don’t care what was done to her afterwards, she is still guilty of an appalling lack of judgement and should be called on it. There were several infractions committed in this case, and no one should be treated better than anyone else because they were a victim of some other infraction.

Just because I was driving drunk when another drunk driver crossed the median and hit me head-on, severing both my legs at the hip, doesn’t give me the right to whine about being a victim and to get a pass on MY drinking and driving.

Absolutely right. However, you can see that the “victim” is still the “victm” of something that was found not to have happened, and for which she was therefore partially responsible. Won’t stop some from saying that she deserves a pass, though.

GreatAmerican · April 8, 2007, 4:10pm

Alumni back Owens in expulsion case

Published in today’s BS:

<a href=“http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/local/annearundel/bal-md.ar.owens08apr08,0,5281114.story?coll=bal-local-arundel[/url]”>http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/local/annearundel/bal-md.ar.owens08apr08,0,5281114.story?coll=bal-local-arundel</a>

nurseypoo · April 8, 2007, 6:18pm

^^^^My concern would be that even as an ensign, where would they post him? Would there be lack of confidence by his superior officers? Just what would be in store for him? Just rhetorical, not serious questions.

GreatAmerican · April 10, 2007, 6:56am

Published in the BS:

<a href=“http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/local/annearundel/bal-md.ar.owens10apr10,0,2200908.story?coll=bal-local-arundel[/url]”>http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/local/annearundel/bal-md.ar.owens10apr10,0,2200908.story?coll=bal-local-arundel</a>

Zaphod · April 11, 2007, 2:57am

Who cares what they think, one way or the other? They have as much impact on this as any of us here do. In other words, ZERO.

More political grandstanding by the esteemed “leaders” of society. :rolleyes:

TheCommissioner · April 11, 2007, 1:52pm

If he ‘beats the system’ he may be considered a hero wherever he’s posted.

navy2010 · April 11, 2007, 3:41pm

He “Beats the system” if he is indeed guilty.

He gets “beaten up by the system” if he is not.

We will never know, not for sure.

One thing is for sure, no matter how great a job he did leading navy in FB, his career, if he is allowed to have one, will have a huge question mark hovering over it forever more… ok if it is deserved, a shame if it is not.

Not for nothing, but you don’t crap where you eat.

and to that particular point I would also agree.

The academy loses either way.

Enough said.

navy2010 · April 12, 2007, 8:51am

This is a bit off the track-

then again, it is food for thought-

The NC DA announced yesterday that the 3 duke lacrosse players accused of rape were “innocent” and that all charges were being dropped. Not “case dropped for lack of evidence,” but “innocent of all charges.”

Great news for 3 young innocent men.

The problem is:

-each family has run up legal fees in excess of 1 million dollars- morgaged homes, maxed out credit cards, exhausted any and all assets and loans from family and friends- to defend their innocent kid.

-they can spend more in legal fees to try and recoup money from a DA that is up for disbarment, but they will never be made whole, or anything close to it. Forget about suing the DA office- government agencies are not up for grabs.

-these boys have been tried, convicted, and smeared all over the media for over a year. Their pictures have been plastered all over the front pages of newspapers and every major TV channel, time and time again, over the last 12 months. I wonder how much front-page press they will get over the next 12 months declaring their innocence. Yesterday it made page 8 of our newspaper.

-we have yet to know who the victum is. Wait- let me rephrase that, because she is only a victum of her own doings. We have yet to know who this lying - I am at a loss for words what to call her than can be posted- is.
I doubt we will remember anything about her a month from now.

-this story will follow these boys around for life. Duke has invited 2 of them back to school; they have declined. It is any wonder.

While I fully appreciate protecting victims of sexual assult, I am of the opinion the pendulum has swung too far to one side, for if the acused are indeed found “innocent,” then the charges are nothing but lies, and the aka “victim” should be held accountable for harm done as a result.

In the case of the duke lacrosse team, it is more than 3 lives ruined- it is 3 families, and I will venture to say it extends out to 3 communities. There has got to be a better way of doing this.

There is something terribly wrong when the innocent have to be financially ruined, not to mention ruined in many other ways, just to defend their innocence, only to be found innocent afterall!!!..and the acusor walks away scott free. Perhaps the losing side should bear the brunt of the cost of both sides if the liability is 100% theirs.

what am i missing??? Seems to be a world gone mad…

GreatAmerican · April 13, 2007, 6:49am

Navy secretary orders former QB to repay $90,000

Published in the BS:

<a href=“http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/education/bal-te.md.owens13apr13,0,7142495.story?coll=bal-home-headlines[/url]”>http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/education/bal-te.md.owens13apr13,0,7142495.story?coll=bal-home-headlines</a>

I hope that the Lamar Owens and Kenny Ray Morrison cases send a loud and clear message to the Brigade of Midshipmen. Unfortunately, part of that message is that there are double standards at the Academy.