NC's transgender law violates Civil Rights Act, Justice says

Interesting the need to limit the position to make your argument work.

No one is disputing that men in women’s clothes rarely attack females in bathrooms. However, the transgender policies made it so that even I, a male who still dress in suits and ties and looks male, could walk into a women’s locker room because I now identify as female. And I would have the right to be nude and shower with anatomical females as well.

The issue that people have is the transgender policy applies to everyone, even males who still look and act like males, but who say they are now females. And if a transgender who still looks and act male can walk into and be in female area, so can a similar male who has less pure motives.

The point - and the quandary - how do young females or any females for that matter tell the difference between these anatomically identical males, one a transgender who is safe and one who is not safe? No one has explained that yet how to take that distinction.

Once again: The only males with “less pure motives” doing this, are males protesting the law. Males protesting the law are doing just what they say they want to protect women and girls from: males exposing themselves in locker rooms. They are making a hypothetical situation a reality.

So the law is intended to address transgender behavior?

Or not? And unless you have a citation, I would amend rarely to ever.

So, Pre-op trans women can’t use the correct bathroom because men might take advantage of it.

Despite the fact that they haven’t taken advantage of it in the past. And now that people are discussing it, the only ones that seem to be want to take advantage are politically motivated people wanting to make a statement:

You are obsessed with this scenario. Just go ahead and do it if you can’t stop thinking about it.

“The bill was made to protect young girls and women in general under the risk of being attacked by a sex offender. No one in the left takes this seriously they would rather stomp on people’s religious liberty and security concerns of females to protect their precious LGBT minorities. Being liberal is about putting minorities and their interests first, anyone in the majority who disagrees is an intolerant bigot.”

Really? It protects young girls and women from being attacked by a sex offender? How? A sex offender (by the way, while much rarer, women of all kinds are on the sex registry, and some of them were for acts against fellow women…so how does this protect women?..if you argue “well, very few incidents have happened with women attacking women”, guess what, there are even fewer of transgender women assaulting fellow women in a restroom) is a sex offender, the problem with this bill is it automatically assumes that since transgender women started life as men, and men are the majority of sex offenders, that ipso facto a lot of transgender women are going to be sex offenders. It would be like banning men from being teachers who teach girls, or being around women, to ‘protect women and girls’, it assumes bad behavior on the part of someone based on simply who they are. The fact that these laws are being mostly promulgated in the old Jim Crow states should come as no surprise, the underlying fear and hate of integration was that blacks, especially men, would behave “inappropriately” with whites, especially women, and this is basically the same argument.

More importantly, this argument is like the argument they tried pulling with same sex marriage, that “allowing same sex marriage would destroy families and hurt children”, claiming that as legal justification to ban the legal recognition of it, and like the issue of transgender women in restrooms, it is a cure for an ill that basically didn’t exist, it was banning something for a hypothetical ill. When they took the same sex marriage bans to the Supreme Court, the opponents tried that argument, but the proponents were able easily to prove that argument was bogus.

There is a fundamental problem with the argument about transgender women in restrooms, and that is if transgender women are such a threat, how come we haven’t seen any numbers of attacks going backwards in time? One of the fundamental problems with this law is it pretty much zeroes in on transgender women who can’t slip easily under the radar, who appear to be more masculine looking and whatnot (taller, larger, etc). Transgender women have been using bathrooms for a long, long time, people have transitioned and lived their lives as women for a long time, so where are all the attacks from “these people?”.If in fact transgender women had a lot of sex predators among them, how come these ‘bathroom laws’ suddenly became an item, when transgender women have been using restrooms for many, many years? What these laws are is that now transgender women who may not slip easily under the radar are using restrooms, those that people may suspect started life as men, and there is a ‘creep factor’ that “eeew, that is a man” with all the associated ideas (which are insulting to men I might add), that men are naturally sex predators and such. It is interesting that in all this debate, the religious blowhards and the bigots have said nothing about transgender men, I have not heard complaints about transgender men using men’s room, this is always about “protecting women and girls”.

More importantly, such laws are made discriminatory, versus serving a public need, because there already is evidence such laws are unneeded. Laws are supposed to be based on harm, on serving or protecting the public good, and in many places in this country there either is law, or simply people dont’ care, transgender women, slipping under the radar or not, have been using women’s facilities for decades, and there has been no problem.

If they were worried about the wording of the law, there are ways to address that be rewording the law allowing bathroom access, but the law went out of its way to basically ban any transgender woman from using a bathroom. The argument about a guy in a suit using a restroom is bogus, in places where these laws exist it simply doesn’t go on.A transgender women who is presenting as a man will use a men’s room, and think about this one, let’s say there is a sex pervert who wants to go into the women’s room, going in wearing a suit and tie would be the last thing they would do, because it would attract attention to them. If a guy went into a women’s room like that, and hung around there, or was peeping in stalls, they would be spotted and under the law could be arrested, because their behavior in there is illegal, no different than if a woman went in there and peeked and such. No, the law basically assumes that any transgender women going into a bathroom is ‘a man in a dress’ and as such, is likely a pervert, and that is discrimination and bias based on idiotic notions, not reality.

As far as this ruling goes, one thing the conservatives especially keep forgetting is the US is based on English law, and as such is based on precedent as much as statute. Arguing that in 1964 those writing Title IV saw women as being those born and raised that way is leaving out the role of precedent, which in part came about to match changing society. In the 1890’s, the Supreme Court decided that racial segregation was okay, in the 1950’s it reversed that. The bill of rights was written with individuals in mind, and the courts since pretty much the founding of the country said that corporations did not have the rights of people, but in recent times SCOTUS turned around and reversed that. Title IV was predominantly written to protect the civil rights of blacks, to end Jim Crow, and at the time those writing it viewed women’s predominant role in life as being raising kids, back then women generally stayed home to raise kids (working married women were a minority, unlike today, where it is the opposite), and the fields that were thought fit for women was limited…and it took court decisions, precedent, to determine the bounds of applicability. More importantly, since 1964, what a woman is has become a lot more complex, the biology of what a woman is includes genetics (the XX chromosome) but that has changed, and more importantly, that gender identity is likely biological as well based on brain wiring, not to mention ideas of self identity, and to apply statutory law based on notions of the past in general are fraught.

By the way, the thing about “birth certificate” is discriminatory in of itself. Some states don’t allow changing birth certificates at all (I think Texas is like that, what a surprise), some states amend the certificate but you know it was amended, others only allow amending it if someone has had GRS surgery, so it isn’t so simple to say all they need to do is have the right BC, and with GRS there are a lot of reasons why transgender people don’t have it, whether it is medical reasons, or more importantly, the cost, GRS can run many 10’s of thousands of dollars and very few insurance plans cover it, even today, so they would be especially vulnerable to this kind of thing.

The irony of the NC law is that under this law, a transgender male could be arrested for following the tenets of the law, if a transgender male wearing a suit and tie walked into a women’s room, they would be following the letter of the law, but likely would be arrested under this law for being a predator in a women’s room.

There is a lot more to this bill them just bathroom policy - like the right to sue for discrimination being taken away, the right of cities to pass their own anti discrimination laws and their right to pass minimum wage laws.

If NC insists on keeping their law it’s their own fault if there are huge economic consequences. Until a case reaches SCOTUS, which it will eventually, and it is ruled unconstitutional, which it will be - NC will reap what they sowed. Businesses do not what to move their companies someplace where their employees will be discriminated against and others don’t want to do business in a state which has law which discriminate against certain classes of people. We have that choice.

Just don’t blame us when things go to pot in your states. The many people in NC and other states who oppose these laws and bemoan the economic impact are going to have to figure out a way to elect legislators who will have the power to throw out these laws. Those of us on the outside can’t do it - and we are not going to look the other way and reward these states with our dollars.

So skyrocketing national rates of bathroom assaults by men presenting as women in women’s bathrooms have now dropped to zero in NC and MS? You’re seeing those headlines everywhere right? Bathroom predators are now fleeing NC and MS and rates of assaults in other states are going up as a result? Women in the other 48 states are terrified to use public restrooms, and have been for decades?

The reason you’re not seeing those headlines is because there never was a problem. There are already plenty of laws against sexual predators and assault. These anti-trans laws have the opposite effect to what they claim, forcing transgender men who look like men into the women’s room and vice versa.

Have you ever even seen a picture of a trans woman or man? See this article for a photo of a girl who is now legally required to use the men’s room. Look at her picture and tell us with a straight face that the world is a safer place with her in the men’s room.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2016/04/28/transgender-bathroom-bills-discrimination/32594395/

If you do honestly believe this to be a serious issue, I just have one last thing to point out. In 2013 there were 33,000 shooting deaths due to guns. That same year there were zero instances of bathroom assaults by transgender people. Which is the more serious problem to address?

“No one in the left takes this seriously they would rather stomp on people’s religious liberty and security concerns of females to protect their precious LGBT minorities. Being liberal is about putting minorities and their interests first, anyone in the majority who disagrees is an intolerant bigot.”

I hate to tell you, but the constitution, specifically the bill of rights, was written to protect minorities and what you call 'their interests", because the majority often acts out of bigotry, the bill of rights was written with the thought of protecting the minority from the majority. It is ironic to hear a term like “religious liberty” used, when the first amendment was written with the same evangelical Christians who cry “religious liberty” and “majority rule” in mind, because when the constitution was written the dominant chuches treated evangelicals horribly (back then it was Methodists and Presbytyrians often).

More importantly, this post has the real reason, in the line "they would rather stomp on people’s religious liberty ", what this boils down to has nothing to do with protecting women and children, it is about a group of people with religious objections to LGBT people claiming that if the law allows transgender people to use a restroom of their gender identity, it ‘offends their religious beliefs’…so basically, they want their religious belief to reflect in the law, once again. It isn’t the freedom to practice their religion, what this is is the right to discriminate based on religious belief, which represents only liberty for those who believe their religious belief is above all others. Sorry, but religious liberty means you have the right to believe as you wish, worship as you wish, but having the law written to not offend religious belief is not liberty, it is oppression, it is no better than blue laws, condom sales made illegal, arresting someone for blasphemy, all of which is the law being used as an instrument of oppression. The bathroom argument is no different than the old argument used for segregation or for legalize same sex marriage, it is claiming a harm prevented when in reality it is about sanctifying their own bigotry into law, pure and simple. When someone can give me verified statitistics that states that have such laws have seen an epidemic of men going into women’s rooms and assaulting women there, when they can show there are strong correlations between being transgendered and being a sex offender, then we may be able to talk; but using that as cover for religious and other bigotry, which is what it is, will fail the true test.

This is nothing more than the oldest dodge in the books, people trying to make society reflect their ignorance and bias, religion is often the culprit, with transgender people, especially transgender women, it ranges from religious belief, to the ‘ick’ factor of dealing with someone who isn’t like yourself, to old held beliefs that anyone who is born male is naturally a sexual predator, and it is sad IMO.

@musicprnt Both your posts here are pure rubbish, you’ve twisted a lot of my words and have turned the argument, all of a sudden, into a pro vs anti-LGBT argument bizarrely.

On your first point you mention that there are few cases of transgendered individuals commuting sex crimes. That’s true however who said that this bill was aimed at transgendered individuals? Where on the bill does it mention transgender people?

The risk of sex offenders attacking in public bathroom and locker rooms is real and many instances where women have been attacked in such places. Limiting this to transgendered individuals is what kills your argument since this isn’t about them at all.

You also mention the Jim Crow laws and same sex marriage to support your flawed argument. The first was targeted at African Americans and the second was a non-issue since civil unions existed and same sex couples could adopt children, the only thing that changes here is the name and association with marriage. Both are irrelevant and add nothing to the validity of your argument.

In addition to this, what I stated about birth certificates is true a number of states allow individuals to change the sex on their birth certificates of they want to. Other states would allow it only after sex change surgery. Now it is interesting that you mention this as this is a separate law from the bill introduced by North Carolina so how does this relate to the bathroom bill exactly? Transgendered individuals could simply move and change the sex on their certificates or demand the state allow sex change on birth certificates. This however is unrelated to the bill which is not discrinatory in itself.

You state the bill stereotypes transgendered people and “encourages” discrimination. Again, I ask you where in the bill are transgendered individuals mentioned and by using the same logic do laws preventing murder and stealing encourage crime? Since African Americans commit a disproportionate share of homicides does the law encourage stereotyping of African Americans?

Finally, your last post on religious views and the ick factor is extremely flawed. What is ironic here is that you stereotyped religious people as bigots and minorities as innocent victims. You try to draw parallels to segregation even though this was as a result of slavery than religion. You mention same sex marriage even though civil unions existed and homosexuals suffered little to no persecution. The bill doesn’t stereotype men or transgendered individuals it simply protects those who are vulnerable from potential risks. Men make up the majority of sexual predators and girls make up the majority of victims. Are the facts stereotypical?

It seems you lose your sense of logic and reasoning while relying on your political ideology. From Feminism to black lives matter we see time and time again the failures of this way of thinking. Affirmative action and the welfare state has done little to help African Americans and the poor. The mythical gender wage gap is non-existent when controlled for occupation and experience. I was personally concerned with police brutality until the left turned it into a “Black” issue. The black live matters rioters that have destroyed stores and killed cops are hailed as the fighters of justice by the left. It has gotten to the point of embarrassment where liberals get caught up in their own political correctness. The bill of rights exist to defend all people including the religious and majority.

You are a high school senior?

If you stick around, it may be interesting to see if your views remain the same after a couple of years of college.

@Ali1302 I don’t think you are going to be impressing anyone with your reading comprehension today.

Birth certificates are issued and maintained by the state in which you are born. Moving doesn’t do anything to help that.

Blatantly untrue in many states before the SCOTUS case.

If it isn’t about them, why was this bill passed now? Do you have citations for this apparent epidemic of bathroom assaults that prompted this bill?

Wait so let me get this right.lol

So a man that want to rape a little girl in a bathroom won’t stop because rape against the law but will follow the bathroom law. Yeah ok that makes a lot of sense.

@alh I’ve personally realised the hypocrisy, bias and lies of those on the left. Although college culture these days may be dominated by liberalism, I’ve already seen and heard what liberals have to offer. All you have to do is look into the mainstream media.

All people change and age has very little to do with it, I’ve known individuals who’ve changed their political views well into their 30’s and 40’s. How does age make me any different?

Also, how does what you state change the facts??

I’m pretty interested in the citations as well. I’ve been searching ever since it was brought up some time back. The only examples of nude men in restrooms or locker rooms I can find, anywhere, seem to be men showing us what “could happen” by protesting the laws. Of course, men expose themselves to women and children regularly in all sorts of public places. And men abuse women and children regularly as well. How can we stop that?

I would question whether you want to rely on mainstream media for your facts. One thing that is sometimes taught in college is to question the very idea that “facts” exist. I hope you enjoy your college experience.

The families of Matthew Shepard and many others who have been killed or beaten or those who have been bullied into suicide might disagree.

And religious liberty is a great thing - why, just yesterday a tow truck driver left a disable woman in her broken-down car on the side of the road because, as a Christian, he refused to tow her car since it had Bernie Sanders stickers on it. To be fair, he claims he also would refuse to tow a car with Hilary signs. (I don’t seem to recall that being in the New Testament, but I must have missed that section)

Of course, if a pagan driver refused to tow a car with a “Jesus is my co-pilot” plate, that would be persecution of Christians.

@senstation723 If that is the case then why do we have laws against murder and robbery?? Would laws against murder prevent homicides?? Would laws agains stealing prevent criminals from stealing?

I hope you realize the flaw in your argument here.

@InigoMontoya there are many cases where a homosexual has murdered and bullied others that are left unreported by the media. Your example is worthless here.

Also, what does the mans religion have to do with him refusing to help others over their politics? If that is the case then the man doesn’t truly reflect Christians. Also does this rule apply to atheist where anything wrong or criminal an atheist does is a reflection on all atheists?

Question: if this law supposedly protects girls and women, what are we doing to protect boys? A male can’t be in the restroom with your daughter, but he can be standing next to your son.

I think most agree that there were definitely not numerous instances of men pretending to be transgender going into locker rooms to see naked women before this became such a news item. From the posts above, it seems some of the supporters of HB2 are now doing just that? Assuming this is true and that this continues, do people not believe there should be some sort of law to prevent this from happening? If so, how might that look?

From what I have heard it seems that is what many want in NC, is some protection from someone pretending to be a transgender women. I think the majority are fine with a true transgender using the restroom they identify with. Instead of responding to that, the opponents of this bill simply say the people that think this might happen are stupid, yet it seems now it is starting to happen?

What was the necessity of Charlotte to pass their ordinance first? I read that it was because Charlotte was one of the only large cities that did not have this type of ordinance already - is that true?

@raneck

“Birth certificates are issued and maintained by the state in which you are born. Moving doesn’t do anything to help that.”

If that’s the case then people should protest in favour of changing another law regarding birth certificates.

“Blatantly untrue in many states before the SCOTUS case.”

You cite no examples post civil unions of any persecution. Am I supposed to talk your word for it as a liberal because we all know that liberals are always honest and factual, right?

“If it isn’t about them, why was this bill passed now? Do you have citations for this apparent epidemic of bathroom assaults that prompted this bill?”

So according to you something has to be epidemic before a bill is prompted to prevent it from happening? I suppose since homicides have decreased greatly in a number of states in this country we no longer require laws to protect citizens against murder.

To answer your question there have been cases of assaults in bathrooms in this country maybe not committed by transgendered individuals but there have been cases of this happening. Sex offenders do attack in public places and the law helps prevents this from happening in public bathrooms. Is the purpose of the bill that difficult to understand?