NC's transgender law violates Civil Rights Act, Justice says

Parent Cafe
81

@emilybee so your argument is that gender isn’t based on biology or what’s on your birth certificate. I have a challenge for you if that’s the case please define the word “gender”?? Also could you explain how trans men(who are biologically female) count as men?

This law will not be deemed unconstitutional because it never mentions transgendered individuals in the first place also it doesn’t discriminate against peoples gender at all, that is unless liberals change the definition of gender as you state. We’ll see how the lawsuit goes hopefully there’d be an unbiased judge present(not of the liberal variety).

82

Well if they weren’t in a hurry to strike down equal rights the legislature and the governor would have had good legal advice that the Justice Department would challenge their legislation. I expect the governor to continue to try to save face by disagreeing with the Justice Dept. Afterall it would look silly to back down now when he could have simply vetoed the bill.

83

“@emilybee so your argument is that gender isn’t based on biology or what’s on your birth certificate.” L

A trans person believes they are not the sex they were born with despite their chromosomal make-up or physical presentations. I wouldn’t presume to question their belief in who they are. It’s none of my business, frankly.

They are men or women because that is who they know they are despite their physical presentations.

Yes, this law will be overturned and within a few years. Just like all the other laws which discriminate have been overturned. And it won’t be one Judge. It will be a majority opinion of the Supreme Court who will overturn it.

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Is NC recruiting bathroom birth certificate checkers? Who is doing the checking? Talk about a public employment program!

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@Ali1302

You misrepresent my posts entirely

I took no position for or against, I was simply explaining that your statements and logic on certain points couldn’t be more wrong. It wouldn’t matter what law we were discussing. In fact, I think I referenced murder specifically. I certainly am not in favor of murder.

I assume you meant to say “…list of offenses committed by homosexuals…” And once again you have a colossal misrepresentation of the discussion. What you originally said was:

I underlined for emphasis this time so you can more easily understand what I was challenging you about. I said zero, absolutely ZERO, that would imply that I thought some gays could not be or were not criminals at times. You just made that up with regards to me out of whole cloth. I simply asked you to prove that crimes, especially murder, committed by gays went unreported. How do you know??

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In fact the bill specifically excludes those males who clean, own, etc - read the bill @Ali1302 - i posted a link to it awhile back.

87

Parents here are pretty charitable to student posters. Some of those student posters stick around for years and it is enjoyable to follow their progress.

The main problem with your posts is they don’t make any sense. And I have no idea how much time and energy it would take to untangle all the many problems. When posters take you seriously, and have taken the time to respond and rebut your arguments, you aren’t bothering to read the links. I mean this in the kindest way possible: you cannot turn in papers like this when you get to college. It’s pretty much just nonsense writing. Please be forewarned.

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@ali1303,

Trans people believe they are the gender they are. It’s not my place to question their belief as to their gender, nor anyone else’s. That they were born with the physical attributes of the opposite sex and it’s on their birth certificate does not make them that gender. The NC law doesn’t even use the term gender - it uses the term biological sex at birth in the law.

Now, how about you answer the questions I asked. How does a women know if it’s a non trans man entering the ladies room or a trans man entering the ladies room - which is the restroom the trans man must use under NC law. Remember they look the same. How does law enforcement tell the difference between the two?

89

After reading Ali’s posts, all I can say is that the movement to abolish critical reasoning skills in the schools seems to be flourishing, if they are any indication. I would answer back, but her posts are not even what we used to call spam in debate club, throw a lot of stuff at the walls and hope something sticks, all their posts are is deriding liberals and claiming as fact things that in the end, make no sense, and then telling other people they don’t know what they are talking about, when they cite facts.

For the record, Ali, the reason before the Supreme court ruled on same sex marriage that gays still faced discimination if they wished to marry is that civic unions and the like were not the same as marriage. If you had bothered to do some research and read, rather than listen to what mom and dad claimed, civil unions were good only the in the state that issued them, so if a couple moved to another state it was meaningless whereas someone who is married has their marriage from another state respected in the remaining 49, civic unions had no meaning for federal benefits, if a couple marries and let’s say the mother is impregnated from a sperm donor, if the mother died the courts would automatically grant custody to the husband, even though he wasn’t the biological dad, if that happened with a civic union the non biological parent could lose custody, especially if the mom’s family in another state petitioned for custody because their state didn’t recognize the civic union, now that gays and lesbians can marry a court cannot do that, they have to respect the marriage of other states when determing custody, and the list went on…but you knew that, right?

I doubt very much what any of us says will make much of a differnce with someone like Ali, but we can only hope.

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But musicprnt, there are obviously no facts in your comment, anywhere!

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For anyone who still needs convincing (with many links): http://mediamatters.org/research/2016/05/05/comprehensive-guide-debunked-bathroom-predator-myth/210200#Independent

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@DonnaL -
As Charlie Brown said to Lucy, when she was reciting a litany of stats on their baseball team ("50 games played, 50 games lost; opponents scored 435 runs, we scored 20…), “Lucy, tell your statistics to shut up” lol. Seriously, it won’t matter, because the whole argument about it protecting women and girls is about as factual as the arguments that same sex marriage would hurt children and ruin marriage, it is using an argument based on no facts other than desperation to be able to discriminate against transgender women (note that I haven’t heard one opponent worried about a transgender male using a men’s room, and more interestingly, aren’t worried about a transgender male, who is likely taking testosterone that puts ones sex drive into hyperspace, using the women’s room even though this law says they should be, a transgender male on HRT has the libido often of a teenage boy (least that is what they tell/told me), while a transgender female has the sex drive of a typical woman…). What I really find funny is when they cite religious belief, a transgender woman I met, Erin Swenson, faced a big problem when she transitioned and wanted to keep her Presbytyrian ordination, she got this while line of crap about the bible and about how her ordination was somehow based around having testes, and she had a brilliant response that basically showed a)the bible says 0 about being transgendered and B)that the bible actually implies that someone who has lost their family jewels (a eunuch) is above all, cited it chapted and verse I might add…and was able to keep it:).

Basically what this law is about is pretending there is a need here, to protect women and children, when the upshot is the law was nothing more than excuse to invalidate local laws of any kind protecting LGBT people. This law didn’t just invalidate the ‘bathroom ordinance’, it forbade towns and cities from creating local anti discrimination laws of any kind protecting lGBT people, that only the state could do that, which given that the NC legislature seems these days to be made up of people who had trouble getting out of the 8th grade and/or represent them, isn’t very likely.

I would love to see a real backlash against this law, I would love to see the elite colleges like the ivies, who go around parading about how liberal they are, in the face of this not letting anyone from a state with laws like this attend the school, I would love to see universities and businesses refuse to recognize credentials from NC state schools as being valid, wanna watch how fast things like this would change? When the ‘people of the earth’ of Kansas banned the teaching of evolution, one of the reasons the state school board was recalled and the law overturned was universities made public comments that Kansas school students would be considered unprepared in science if they were not taught about evolution, and suddenly parents who wanted their kids to end up doing something with their lives realized what that meant.

I am waiting to see if Obama follows through on his threats, last I checked NC gets about 25% of its school funding from the federal government, they get a large proportion of highway spending from them, not to mention the significant farm subsidies they get, wonder if they will have the strength of their convictions if they find out how much it is going to cost them.

There was an op ed in the NY Times about this, from a bookstore owner in Charlotte, who was talking about the effects of boycotts on the state, how authors are refusing to do book signings there, how musical acts are pulling out, and so forth, and arguing that was punishing people who had nothing to do with the law,that Charlotte after all was the one who passed the orignal bathroom bill. The problem with that is that they are in part responsible for the odious law, that they let the rednecks in the rural areas dominate the discussion, and representatives from these areas put on little fight in the legislature to stop this law, there were little public protests from anyone other than the LGBT groups, and the businesses that are whining about the cost of this didn’t get on the horn with the governor and tell him what they would do if he signed the bill…No, not everyone in NC is a bigot, like most places the city areas are diverse as are the college areas around UNC, the problem is that people in those areas passively sat back while this crap went on, and tried to hide behind ‘well, it wasn’t my fault’. When Burke said for evil to triumph all good men have to do is nothing, or when Niemoller made his famous statement about the holocaust “When they came for the …I did nothing because I was not…”, it speaks to these situations.

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If HB2 does nothing else it validates the need for LGBT protections to be added into law.

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But it does matter, musicprnt. Even if there are only a handful of people who genuinely believe that there’s a real problem, but also care about actual facts, it’s still helpful to be able to point to those facts, all collected in a single resource.

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I don’t see how a liberal institution could impose such an illiberal policy and maintain their liberal image.

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@musicprnt – “When Burke said for evil to triumph all good men have to do is nothing, or when Niemoller made his famous statement about the holocaust “When they came for the …I did nothing because I was not…”, it speaks to these situations.”

^^ When I lived in North Carolina, it was vogue to criticize Jesse Helms and his racist re-election ads even in the most conservative circles. I can honestly say I never met anyone in the 10 years I lived there who admitted to voting for Jesse, and I married into a conservative family. But clearly, a huge number of voters did vote for Jesse.

I believe many people, maybe a majority, in North Carolina do support HB2. It may be a publicly repugnant position to hold, but North Carolinians are entitled to it. As far as I’m concerned, let the backlash run its course. Elections have consequences. For both sides.

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http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/north-carolina-gov-pat-mccrory-faces-monday-deadline-lgbt-law-n570396

"North Carolina on Monday filed a lawsuit against the federal government in response to a letter from the Justice Department that gave the state until the end of the day to scrap a controversial law regarding access to public bathrooms or risk losing hundreds of millions of dollars in federal funding…

The suit filed against the federal government, which lists McCrory and other state officials as plaintiffs, called the Justice Department’s position on the law “baseless and blatant overreach.”

North Carolina’s suit said that Title VII, which the Department of Justice said House Bill No. 2 violates, doesn’t recognize transgender status as a protected class. “If the United States desires a new protected class under Title VII, it must seek such action by the United States Congress,” the suit said. "

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@donnal-
I understand your point, but I doubt there are very many people who back HB2 who are interested in facts, for example, I still here cited by the religious right that kids raised by same sex parents are hurt by it (the Catholic Bishops in the US, for example, have never recinded their position that kids having same sex marriage is tantamount to child abuse, a pretty ironic statement if there ever was one), even though there are many serious studies that show there is no difference. Like with the ‘debate’ over evolution, you are talking about people holding onto illogical/irrational positions and no amount of facts is going to sway them, their standard answer being 'those aren’t facts, those are beliefs spouted by the liberal press, not facts", the typical negate what the other person is saying rather than citing facts themselves, because they know they don’t have facts. Take a look at the person we were all debating, who I would guess is going to college next year, and what they cited as ‘fact’, and you get the idea.

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“I believe many people, maybe a majority, in North Carolina do support HB2. It may be a publicly repugnant position to hold, but North Carolinians are entitled to it. As far as I’m concerned, let the backlash run its course. Elections have consequences. For both sides.”

They are entitled to their opinions, they are even entitled to try and pass odious laws and such (that probably will be found to be illegal by appelate courts, The Roemer decision made overwriting local laws like this unconstitutional), but the one thing they are not entitled to is to try and duck the consequences of their opinions and beliefs. I seriously want to upchuck when someone says something others find vile, then run around crying how their freedom to have their own beliefs or freedom of speech violated, as if those freedoms are also freedom to not have consequences. People who voted for Jesse Helms (which obviously they did, since he stayed in power) but then wouldn’t admit to voting for him knew that, they were playing the oldest dodge in the book, they have their own thoughts and beliefs but don’t have the courage to admit to them. Put it this way, I have heard defenses of the Jim Crow south, that most people in those areas really didn’t support Jim Crow, that it was a small group of powerful people that supported it, that their family didn’t support it (of course), and it is a crock of baloney. I can say a lot of things about some of the vile things I have heard said by politicians and such, but at least they were honest.

More importantly, while I don’t doubt the bookseller in question I mentioned in one of my posts was against this law, I think there are a lot of people in NC who will say “I am against the law but what can I do” who secretly support it, and it won’t just be the idiots up in the hills that are generally blamed, I wouldn’t be surprised if many of those in the LGBT groups in NC that are fighting this bill secretly support it, for example, especially in the lesbian community, or if there aren’t otherwise relatively open minded, liberal to libertarian minded people, who supposrt this bill because they believe that transgender women are really men in a dress, who publicly claim to be outraged by the bill but in private agree with it. That is one of the reasons that boycotts and such are important, because it is that ‘hidden majority’ that may have supported this law without admitting to it, who would be most swayed.

100

“I don’t see how a liberal institution could impose such an illiberal policy and maintain their liberal image.”

Why? They aren’t saying that people who hold those beliefs cannot go to their school, or that beliefs are not valid, what they are saying is that they are protesting what they see as a human rights violation or bad law overturned. Universities in the 70’s and 80’d divested themselves of supporting companies in South Africa via removing them from their endowments, I wonder if during the Jim Crow era if the great universities had done something similar with the Jim Crow states, including not letting their kids attend their schools, how faster we might have seen progress with civil rights.

To give you an idea from the Scopes Monkey trial, despite what the movie “Inherit the Wind Showed”, there were a lot of local people who were supporting Scopes defense, who were involved with getting Clarence Darrow in to represent him, there was an Evolotion club in Dayton that included many prominent people. Other prominent people personally didn’t believe in Evolution, but they also felt it should be taught and the kids could decide for themselves…and one thing the people supporting Scopes said was they wanted their kids to be able to go to the great universities and were afraid that they were going to be treated like a bunch of ill educated hicks. The same thing happened when the Kansas school board decided to remove evolution from their science curricula, parents and students were up in arms because they knew the actions of the idiots who passed that law would affect them.

Liberalism in its true sense is about freedom, something the NC bathroom law is against, so protesting it by putting consequences on those who pass it is fighting for that freedom, and the freedom to discriminate or treat a group of people as criminals (for a basic function like going to the bathroom) is not a freedom, since it goes away from the freedom that classic liberalism upheld.