Hi OP! I sent you a PM with more details so as not to derail the thread. Thanks for asking! Our daughter did not apply to Barnard (it was way over her head) but went to a much lower ranked, local college which was affordable and close to home where she was able to thrive. She found her path and her people and it all worked out. She was accepted to NYU and Columbia for grad school and being four years more mature she was ready to take on the big bad city. There is something to be said for trusting the kids’ knowing their own comfort level, whether regarding size or intensity or setting.
UChicago is a bit of an acquired taste. I would not want my kid to go there unless they were all in for the academic rigor, core, and “life of the mind” atmosphere. Barnard is s great choice. If she prefers it, she should go there.
Also, pushing a kid to a parent preference school can really backfire if the kid has a bad experience. They will blame you.
I am probably more into ranking than many CC’ers, but in this case if my kid had to choose between Barnard and Chicago I would encourage them to go to Barnard. To me ranking represents certain rigor of the school. In this case, I am not convinced Barnard’s rigor is less than Chicago’s, and OP’s D wouldn’t have just as many options when she graduates and she probably would have more fun at Barnard. JHU is also another highly ranked school that I wouldn’t recommend to people.
I was just at Columbia with D2 visiting for law school. It is a beautiful campus and has such an easy access to NYC. U of Chicago never spoke to my 2 kids or anyone in my family. It is an acquired taste as pointed out by intparent.
@ahsoitgo – as far as opportunities like internships, job prospects, and grad school – NYC simply can’t be beat. Chicago is a great city, but NYC simply is MORE. So to the extent that’s important – then Barnard would be the better choice for any student who finds the NYC lifestyle appealing.
I do also think that there is an added benefit of a woman’s college and Barnard’s particularly resources and its career center & advising system for all 3 of those things. I honestly can’t imagine things have been any better for my daughter when it came to career services, mentoring, advise, and support both with grad school and fellowship applications.
@calmom So much good information. Thank you! One question as is seems your daughter had a lot of experience with taking courses through Columbia’s departments: what is the course selection process like? Is it harder for a Barnard student to get into the classes they want at CC? Do CC students have priority spots? How often was it that she wasn’t able to take a class that she wanted? Thanks in advance!
@ahsoitgo Apologies for jumping in, my daughter is a first-year at Barnard, and I thought I could help answer this. When they register all Columbia University classes come up. The Barnard ones have a BC in their course number, Columbia College’s have a C-something, the grad schools have other designations. My daughter is about 50/50 B vs C courses. Priority in registration goes to upperclass students, but not by College. My daughter has had no issue with registering for the classes she wanted. There are a handful of courses that are only open to students in certain colleges. Barnard’s First Year courses are open only to Barnard. Columbia’s core classes, only to Columbia. My daughter is very happy at Barnard and loves being in NYC. Hope that helps.
Thank you! @ams220 That actually is really helpful information. It make sense about the First Year Seminars and Core classes. I was worried that it may be a struggle to get into some CC courses if there was priority (like some consortium colleges) so this is good information to know. My daughter has been looking through the course catalog!
@ahsoitgo – the course registration system is entirely integrated. There really is no difference beween enrolling for a Columbia course or Barnard course-- it is just a matter of selection and signing up. There are of course some seminar-size courses with enrollment restrictions-- or which require advance permission from a professor or an extra application process – but the only courses my daughter encountered like that were at Barnard-- which may simply be a function of smaller class size on average. Because my daughter had a Barnard-based major, it could also simply be that she was more likely to be choosing advanced level, limited enrollment courses at Barnard – I’d assume that Columbia also has some advanced level courses restricted to upper level students within the major where the course is offered.
But my daughter never was denied access to a class – it’s just that sometimes she had to be alert to specific requirements for registration.
All courses can be seen here – http://www.columbia.edu/cu/bulletin/uwb/ - you can browse by department or subject.
There are of course pros/ cons good points/ less good points to both situations, but if your D does not like the program of studies (eg core) she would have to take there that to me is an overriding consideration.
Seriously - there is no difference here educationally as far as quality is concerned. So if she prefers Barnard’s more open curriculum and all of what Barnard as a woman’s college can offer I think there’s no dilemma here at all.
BTW my oldest turned down Harvard for Carnegie Mellon and my youngest turned down U of Chicago for Tufts. In both cases they felt that the schools they chose couldn’t offer what the higher ranked school did.
Maybe I’m not the one to ask about this because I think the college ranking systems shouldn’t even be individual numbers, but instead tiers. How the heck could one system possibly say that school A was one point above school B so therefore more “prestigious” or the “better” school?!? Wouldn’t it make more sense to group them instead? Tiers like - “Most selective research universities” listing the grouping of say 20 - 30 would be meaningful, but to try to gauge whether one school is better than the other because it is a few points higher on a single rating scale? Silly, IMO.
UChicago and Columbia/Barnard are both fantastic schools and will give your daughter great opportunities.
My son just returned from the first UChicago admitted student overnight event and is wowed but stunned and a little intimidated. He’s realizing just how intense the curriculum really is. This is a kid who taught himself things like stochastic calculus outside school just because he was curious, but he’s worried he won’t be able to do the work there. I can’t imagine how miserable it would be for a kid who doesn’t want to be there or for whom it isn’t a great fit - sounds like a way to torture POWs instead of college.
If your daughter loves Barnard and it’s a fit for her - send her and don’t think twice. What a good outcome to have a dd at a fabulous school that she loves.
Those rankings can shift around a lot. Don’t pick a school because it’s #3 as it could be #10 next year. My eldest school has jumped around a bit… 25 when she entered, was at 35 one year and now at 21 this year. It’s been the consistent great school for her all of those years. I kind of feel like if you have top 50 LAC or top 100 university to choose from you are doing pretty great (and that’s still excluding a lot of really quality schools!) your daughter has wonderful options! She should go where she’s feels most likely to succeed.
Just to add from a Columbia perspective–my S went there and frequently took, and often, preferred Barnard courses. years later, his closest friend from then is a former Barnard student. So just echoing that not only are the courses easy to cross-register for, but that the rigor is impressively strong regardless of the school.
Thanks @milee30 I know what you mean about the intensity of U of C…My husband went there and it doesn’t help my daughter’s viewpoint when he wears his “Where Fun Goes To Die” T-shirt!!
And on the whole, I agree - schools should be grouped or “ranked” in a different, much more meaningful and helpful way…
Thank you @garland, @calmom and @ams220. So, I know that this may be simplifying things, but is the only difference (academically) between Columbia and Barnard the fact that one college has core classes and one has Foundations classes?
When my daughter was at Barnard, there was a thesis requirement for her major and there were also some Barnard 9-ways of knowing requirements that were in some ways more stringent than Columbia’s requirements.But there have been changes since then so I really can’t speak to the current academic requirements. I’d think that the primary difference would depend on major. For majors that are offered separately by each college you could review specific requirements to get a sense of overall depth of course work.
I don’t see any real point in comparing one to the other except for students who have been admitted to both Columbia & Barnard and making that choice – but you said your daughter was choosing between Barnard & Chicago. And the point is, Columbia U has 4 undergraduate colleges, including Barnard. In the end they all get degrees from the same university. Barnard has a separate, very small campus – but “separate” simply means across the street in an area measured by city blocks. It doesn’t seem far. Barnard students generally live in separate housing from Columbia, but there is some leeway in housing assignments after first year. . Beyond that , campus life is fairly unitary – most EC’s & social activities are fully integrated. No one wears labels so there is no way for anyone to know if a female student attends Barnard or CC without asking.
Does your daughter have a specific major or focus in mind?
Thanks @calmom. My D is all over the place in terms of major, so college will hopefully be where she finds her passion (more the reason for the right fit!) She does extremely well in the STEM majors and was able to do accelerated work in both math and physics, but she is drawn to English and Languages (which she hasn’t really explored beyond the run of the mill public HS AP classes). This is the dichotomy she has faced the last 4 years and is now reflected in her college decisions…
My D2 is a freshman at Barnard. I don’t know anything about registration process.
But whenever she calls, she gushes out how she bonded with her hall mates and how she feels at home at Barnard. During the day, her life is totally integrated with Columbia. She takes 50% of her classes at Columbia, she belongs to a club at Columbia and hangs out with students from Columbia. She has met one or two Columbia students who were not happy about the fact that Barnard students got in with higher acceptance rate and getting all the same resources as Columbia students. But they were rarities. Most of the Columbia kids don’t care which college you belong to.
She loves the sisterhood among the Barnard students and how, wherever you are on Barnard campus, you feel “We (women) can do it!!” kind of spirit.
I think the students who are drawn to women’s colleges are looking for something (consciously or unconsciously) that the co-ed colleges don’t have. If she was drawn to women’s colleges and found the fit with Barnard, that’s where she can find that something!