<p>Careful with planting a lot of ivy, it attracts rats, city or country. Let us know how it goes!</p>
<p>kathiep, yes those are the exact bushes except our neighbor never trimmed theirs to look like a tree or a ball. They just let them grow into a very tall hedge, literally a wall of green at the back of my fence.</p>
<p>Something there is that doesn’t love a wall,
That sends the frozen-ground-swell under it,
And spills the upper boulders in the sun,
And makes gaps even two can pass abreast.
The work of hunters is another thing:
I have come after them and made repair
Where they have left not one stone on a stone,
But they would have the rabbit out of hiding,
To please the yelping dogs. The gaps I mean,
No one has seen them made or heard them made,
But at spring mending-time we find them there.
I let my neighbor know beyond the hill;
And on a day we meet to walk the line
And set the wall between us once again.
We keep the wall between us as we go.
To each the boulders that have fallen to each.
And some are loaves and some so nearly balls
We have to use a spell to make them balance:
‘Stay where you are until our backs are turned!’
We wear our fingers rough with handling them.
Oh, just another kind of out-door game,
One on a side. It comes to little more:
There where it is we do not need the wall:
He is all pine and I am apple orchard.
My apple trees will never get across
And eat the cones under his pines, I tell him.
He only says, ‘Good fences make good neighbors’.
Spring is the mischief in me, and I wonder
If I could put a notion in his head:
‘Why do they make good neighbors? Isn’t it
Where there are cows?
But here there are no cows.
Before I built a wall I’d ask to know
What I was walling in or walling out,
And to whom I was like to give offence.
Something there is that doesn’t love a wall,
That wants it down.’ I could say ‘Elves’ to him,
But it’s not elves exactly, and I’d rather
He said it for himself. I see him there
Bringing a stone grasped firmly by the top
In each hand, like an old-stone savage armed.
He moves in darkness as it seems to me~
Not of woods only and the shade of trees.
He will not go behind his father’s saying,
And he likes having thought of it so well
He says again, “Good fences make good neighbors.”</p>
<p>I’d suggest that you and Don each volunteer to pay for the kind of fence you want (taller, “wood” type) between your and Connie’s property. Then, she would pay for the section only across the back. You’d all get what you want --you and Don won’t have to deal with the chain link you don’t want, AND most importantly, she’ll get the sense of security she’s seeking but at a similar cost. (I’m honestly not sure what the cost comparisons are, but I have to think it’d be pretty close, if she’s only paying for the back section.) </p>
<p>Having a mother in law of my own who has been a bit frightened in her neighborhood, I can tell you she will likely not go for anything other than a fence. And I understand her concerns…she probably WILL feel safer once she has it.</p>
<p>A thought…</p>
<p>If your neighbor is putting a 4’ chainlink fence and you really wanted to turn lemons into lemonade, you could plant knockout roses along the fence. They can be easily hedged, bloom profusely, available in a variety of colors and top out at about 4’x4’ which makes them much more manageable than ligustrums or other big shrubs. Since they are not a overly tall shrub, you still have that openness that is desirable between the properties. And they are beautiful!! Your neighbor would never complain about them. 
Definitely a property value enhancement.</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.theknockoutrose.com/moreroses.cfm[/url]”>http://www.theknockoutrose.com/moreroses.cfm</a></p>
<p>NYmom-
How long have you owned your house? Does your 70 yr old neighbor have adult children? Are you friendly with them? Does she get along with them? You might want to talk to them about “mom’s” ideas and your alternative suggestions. That might help break the stalemate, as it were.</p>
<p>I like the idea of buying the half lot. How about negotiating a contract to buy the half lot with monthly payments? Right now the neighbor is getting nothing from the half lot - it is just something else to maintain and fence off. If you offer to buy the lot on contract she would receive monthly income - which would help if she is on a fixed income.</p>
<p>Failing that - I would try to get a first right of refusal document - that is when she puts her home up for sale you have the right to buy the half lot that she owns.</p>
<p>Depending on your location - in the future when your neighbor sells the home the new owners could knock it down and extend to the envelope boundaries on the property. A three story wall of house could overlook your half lot.</p>
<p>Wow, what a situation. We just had a 4 foot fence put up (replacement fence on 4 houses in a row). Our neighbor learned from her lawn mower guy that his cousin did fences. His crew brought out cedar planks and built the fence in-place. It looks great and is quite sturdy. They did the work for what I thought was a very reasonable price, and it’s far less easy to climb than chain link would be. They scalloped the top edge by placing steel rods that bent down and used that as a template. The cost going through a big fence house would have been about 1.5 times more. My point is that if the neighbor thinks chain link is cheapest, you could explore this route for her. Good luck!</p>
<p>Westcoast is right. I have some relatives in Cedarhurst whose neighbors on both sides have expanded their houses to the absolute maximum, and they feel like sardines. If there is a way to afford purchasing the 1/2 lot, thats a great idea. However, with kids in college, that may be a challenge. Alternatively, any chance she is willing to put the fence on the edge of the shared empty lot, leaving the entire empty lot unscathed, and potentally usable/sellable? I know it is a stretch, but perhaps its a way of getting the fence further from your house. However, as you said, her property line does run down the middle of the empty lot. Sigh…</p>
<p>I’m wondering how on earth they ended up owning the lot together. Not something you see much in CA.</p>
<p>Whether the half lots are buildable or not is an important question. Perhaps the neighbor, wanting to cash in by selling to a developer like so many, wants to “encourage” your participation by making the property a little less attractive?</p>
<p>Here in CA, most land that people held off letting be developed for decades is being developed by heirs as 1 acre lots that can be subdivided into 4 or more are worth $5MM and more in the more expensive towns.</p>
<p>Buying a lot and a half when building a home is very common here. Developers in planned communities often set aside groups of three lots that they allow to be sold for three homes or two. But also we have a lot of land and it is cheap.</p>
<p>ldmom, you’re clairvoyant! See below.</p>
<p>I spoke to Connie today. She called me to complain that “someone” had removed two survey stakes and replaced them. (My 8-year-old saw them in the ground - they’re bright orange and barely protrude above the grass - I hadn’t noticed them - and came running in the house to show me. I told him to put them back.) She said that the stakes were placed very precisely and she was going to have to have the surveyors back with their equipment. I felt guilty and said that I’d pay for the return visit. Since our conversation, though, I’ve reconsidered. She never talked to me at all about her survey or plans for a fence. I knew about them only because Don saw the activity and asked her what was going on. I did not know that there were two stakes along the property line. If she had called and said that there were stakes that shouldn’t be moved, I would have told my kids not to touch them. As it is, an 8-year-old saw bright orange objects in his yard and I think it was natural for him to pick them up. </p>
<p>I asked her about the fence and she said that she needed to put it up because of vandalism from the (awful) children who live behind her. I asked her whether she would consider working with us to find a more acceptable solution. She said that she had made the arrangements and would go ahead with the chain-link fence. I told her that we would be willing to install a wood fence along our common property line and pay for it completely. She said that she didn’t want a wooden fence because you couldn’t see through it. I said that I had a picket fence in mind. She said that those kids would tear a picket fence up. I said that they would also climb a 4-foot chain link fence. She said that she planned to plant a “holly hedge” along the fence on her side, that it would be prickly and grow very tall (ldmom!). (So much for her claim that the chain-link fence would be invisible because you could see through it!)</p>
<p>She plans to have the fence come along the side as far as the front of her house, and to have the holly hedge go all the way to the street! I am in shock. There are very few fences here, and the ones that are here are fancy wooden ones. Most people have shrubbery in between the houses, very soft looking. Our street is a parkway, very wide, with grass, trees and plantings on the center islands. I love driving into our neighborhood, especially in the spring, because it is so beautiful. The houses are mostly from the 30’s. </p>
<p>I think the fence will be fairly invisible, but there will be a high wall of holly surrounding her property! I love holly, but I think it will look very strange to have so much of one plant. I think our side yard (the half lot) will feel very closed in. Our back yard slopes so much that it is almost unusable, so the side yard is where the kids play.</p>
<p>I saw today that some branches of one of my evergreen trees, the one that is very close to the property line, had been marked for removal. I asked her about this, and she said that they would remove the branches that interfered with the fence placement (she can do this because they overhang her property). I told her that it would have been courteous to mention that she was planning to have my tree trimmed. </p>
<p>She does have adult children, but I don’t know them. They are not around much.</p>
<p>I love the idea of knockout roses, but I’m not sure they’d grow with the holly looming over them. I’m not sure what will grow on my side. It will probably be very shady.</p>
<p>Don and I (and our spouses) are going to write a joint letter, saying that we are disappointed that she chose to plan to install a fence without discussing it with us and that she was not willing to try to find a more acceptable solution, even though we offered to pay, that the chain-link fence would not fit into the neighborhood, would be an eyesore, would lower her property values and those of her neighbors, etc. We will say that the no part of the fence, the concret footings, etc., can be on our property, that we will have surveys done after it’s built and demand that it be moved if it encroaches. Don will also say that the workmen cannot go on his property. (There is a large section along his boundary with a holly hedge about an inch from the property line on her side. Her plan is to put the fence on Don’s side of the hedge. He does not think it can be installed from her side unless the bushes are pulled out, and he hopes she’ll decide to put it on her side of the hollies. He will have trouble covering that part of the fence because it is a rock outcropping on his side. I’m hoping that she will be very conservative with the fence placement on my side, too. Her plan now is to have it 2" from the property line.</p>
<p>You and Don may wish to have your own surveyors out before she puts the fence in just to make sure her fence people don’t fudge it in her favor. Your comment about her putting the fence on Don’s property makes it sound as if she has no qualms about fudging in her favor.</p>
<p>The chain link fences I’ve seen (and I have one) have concrete footings so I don’t think she can do 2" without infringing on your side. Since she’s not cooperative and not willing to give at all I’d get firm as well.</p>
<p>It was rude of her to not at least let you know that she planned to have someone trim your tree.</p>
<p>Given the neighbor’s attitude, definitely forbid any workmen on your property, especially since it will cause some, albeit probably temporary, damage. It would be interesting to see how her holly does before it’s too tall for deer to jump the fence and dine… I’ll also add that she doesn’t have to conform to anyone else’s idea of what makes a neighborhood look good; I abhor white picket fences, for example. Good luck and don’t let this stress you out too much.</p>
<p>Deer don’t holly around here becasue the leaves are too prickly, however rose thorns don’t seem to phase them. It certainly does sound as though you will need to stake your claim in written, legal form to protect your borders in some way.</p>
<p>One point to the OP though–your eight-year-old should not have pulled up the stakes and is perhaps old enough to have it explained to him that one does not touch other people’s property or items whose ownership and provenance and/or are unknown. Note too that the stakes in some contexts could have been treated with a chemical that would be bad for him–think of pesticides and preservatives. </p>
<p>It is occurring to me that your neighbor may be truly plagued by the horrible kids who live behind her but that she may also have lost patience with the more innocuous activites of the nicer children in the other families around her, and simply be to polite to say so. Once things start to get unpleasant it can be hard to tell the difference between the real problems and the little manageable ones and in her mind they may all be beginning to mix together.</p>
<p>My 8-year-old would have thought the stakes were on our property. They were along the property line, which has, until now, only been a line in the grass. He’s very compliant, and would never have touched them if he’d been told not to. And he never would have touched anything on someone else’s property, if he’d realized it was on someone else’s property. </p>
<p>I think you’re right, mattmom, that Connie is closing in and becoming less tolerant of life around her. I think that she now does not want anything to do with any chlidren. She has always been very friendly to my children, and before he became demented and went into a home, her husband was wonderful to my kids (mostly the older one; he has not been himself since the younger one was quite little) and to me. Whenever he saw us doing any outside work, he’d come over and offer to do it himself, or to help, or to at least provide the right tools. He did a lot of gardening, and had a huge compost heap. We used to add to it. </p>
<p>She does already have some holly, and I don’t think the deer eat it. I wonder how fast it grows? I know it can get very tall.</p>
<p>I was concerned about 2" being enough for footings, without coming onto my property. I’m hoping that if she knows we will check afterward, she’ll err on the side of caution.</p>
<p>What about planting a row of tall ornamental grasses on your side of the fence?</p>
<p>OP - </p>
<p>Forgive me for sounding harsh - but it seems that the real point of your frustration is that you simply don’t want a fence between the two homes - in reality, that it is the issue - more than the type fence she installs. I understand that - but your neighbor does want a fence and she has the right to install such.</p>
<p>You continue to mention “openness, etc.” If that is your true ideal - a chain link fence is much more “open” than a wooden one. Placing roses or other “light” plantings on your side will make the fence disappear. From a distance, a chain link fence is much less noticable than a wooden fence. However, if you really want a wooden fence - simply install one on your side of her chain link. You’ve already offered to pay for that option for your neighbor - simply use the funds and install it yourself. </p>
<p>Our neighborhood does not permit chainlink fences - and I almost wish they did - the upkeep of wooden ones can be very timeconsuming/expensive - and many people do not do so. Those that are not well maintained are an eyesore.</p>
<p>I must agree with a previous poster who mentioned that your children may be part of the problem. You have stated that they play in the “side yard” and their removal of the survey stakes indicates they probably do not “fully respect” the boundary between the two yards. Since you are friends, and your children were close to her husband, she may not have wanted to mention it to you. </p>
<p>Please do not play “hardball” with this elderly woman. Stand by your original offer to pay to replace the stakes your son removed. If the workers installing the fence need to stand on your property to install the fence, allow it - as long as they do no damage to your grass or plantings.</p>
<p>It’s very difficult in a neighborhood to reconcile varying preferences. Trust me on this - my husband and I have been on the board of our neighborhood for 10 years. You would be surprised at some people’s choices!</p>
<p>Since zoning regulations and neighborhood covenants obviously allow for her fence choice - accept there is nothing you can do - and find a way to ameliorate the effect on your “line of sight”. You have lived in peace with her all these years - don’t ruin it over this issue.</p>
<p>Perhaps, I feel strongly because I have been in this situation before - on the opposite side (of the fence, so to speak <grin>.) When we bought our house - new subdivision - we installed a wooden privacy fence. Ours was the first house built in our portion of the neighborhood - there were no neighbors. We followed all the protocals, getting permission in writing, using the appropriate materials, etc. before installation. The man who eventually purchased the house behind us petitioned the builder, the neighborhood association, etc. to have our fence removed. He did not want a fence next to his property. He was apoplectic when his other neighbor installed the same. There really is no reconciliation to be found when one neighbor wants a fence and the other does not. </grin></p>
<p>The hard feelings resulting from his actions and attitude never went away. He alienated his two next door neighbors by his attitude. I don’t think you want to create ill will at this stage of the relationship. Please remember - she is not doing this “to you”. </p>
<p>There are many many things most people dislike about many of their neighbors and/or their choices of landscaping, decor, etc. Elderly childless couples get annoyed by the noise of children playing, pet-free persons dislike the sounds of dogs barking, etc. I get annoyed by the neighbor whose constant stream of party guests regularly fill my front curb with parked cars. Not to mention the constant blocking of the roads by private lawn services that run their obnoxious “blowers” constantly. I can’t do anything about it - as long as the “rules allow it”, I must tolerate it. But, it wouldn’t solve the annoyance and would only make matters worse to alienate those you live near.</p>
<p>Nobody has mentioned the option of split rail fencing. It’s common in our area and many people attach deer fencing right to that. It’s nicer because it leaves a more open feel between the properties - the attached deer fencing is virtually invisible, and some people install at a height taller than the fence itself ( a true deer barrier has to be 8 feet high and most split rails are more like 4-6 feet) . More attractive than either a solid wooden fence, a picket fence or chain link plastic IMO. Just a thought! We also did the planting thing - have a row of cyprus trees in front of our back fence to camoflauge the power lines. </p>
<p>That said - I tend to agree that if the zoning allows for this, there is not much point in pushing the issue or damaging the relationship, since it sounds like she’s going to do what she wants in any event. Nothing wrong with making an offer to pay for an upgraded material etc. - but if she’s already refused once, I wouldn’t push it at this point.</p>