Neo-Atheists

Parent Cafe
281

<p>can anyone dispute the claims of a child’s invisible friend? nope, how do we know there is no invisible friend</p>

<p>as the child get’s older, do parents encourage the belief in the invisible friend? no, they don’t they try a get the child to give up the invisible friend and deal with reality…and why do they do that?</p>

<p>should the parents let the child continue to have the invisible friend into adulthood? why not? if we teach kids that Jesus is their friend and will help them, should a child not opt to have a personal friend?</p>

<p>this is a serious question, if parents will deny at some point the existence of an invisible friend, how is that different from others questioning the belief in God…</p>

<p>as for questioning beliefs, if a religion today believed in human sacrifice, and their teachings were that it was essentional for their people, etc, do we step in? how do we know that God didn’t tell them to do that?</p>

<p>lets talk about cults…who are we to judge, then, following other’s logic, that those cults have crossed the line? if they say their leader is God, how do we know it is not? </p>

<p>and again, to applying logic and thought to a belief system, what would our world be like if people with vision and who did not fear for themselves, what would our world be like if they did’t question? many thought disease was God’s punishment for misdeeds, etc…and the way to get better was through prayer…should we have stayed in that same mindset?</p>

<p>for years, infection was thought to be evil spirits, etc, but some savvy doctor realized, gee, lets wash our hands, thinking logically ad volia, infections fell</p>

<p>some people thought that left handed people were evil, and the church taught them so, my H was HIT all the time for using his left hand at school, should his mom have stepped in and said, well, think about it, is being left handed a sign of evilness? really?</p>

<p>logic is imperative in balancing religion and public life, medical care, war, schooling, etc…it is imperative for those that question to keep vigilant</p>

<p>as I said thank goodness for those in history who did question and impart their logic and rational thought, otherwise we would be int he dark ages</p>

282

<p>FS;</p>

<p>What’s happened to prompt this dark mood? It isn’t like you. Surely the publication of a couple of anti-God books is not a cause for alarm in a nation so fervently religious? Personally, I have doubts about whether or not atheism is a worrisome issue in the US. I cannot fathom why it would worry the WSJ, frankly.</p>

<p>I was in the West and the Midwest in October. Church was full. Catholic schools are full. Religion is embraced everywhere. That’s a huge contrast to the rest of the world.</p>

<p>My 20 year old uni student was home for a month. He’s got his nose in books of all sorts. He’s not spouting any 9/11 conspiratorial nonsense, nor is he uncomfortable with religion or religious discussion. I don’t know if he’s made up his mind whether or not he will practice organzied religion. Frankly, he’s kind of impressionable. If his wife practices, he’ll practice. Since he attends uni in the US, chances are he will fall in love with a religious girl (happened once already in fact) and chances are that he will practice organized religion. That’s my bet.</p>

<p>I have a hard time believing that Dartmouth is full of rich anti-US, anti-religious jocks with a propensity for beer–you’ll have to fill me in on how you have determined this is so. Evidence please ;)</p>

<p>For the record, I am nearly 50. I have lived overseas, on 3 continents, for a total of 8 years. I lived in the US, in four cities in three very different parts of the country, for 42 years–nearly twice your lifetime. I still spend nearly two months of every year in the US. I will probably return there at some stage. Not sure why the tag of ‘globetrotting’ would diminish my opinions, but I can assure your 60 second cyber take on my father is off base. I love him dearly, but he is not able to listen to Limbaugh without absorbing the rage and the anxiety. It’s a most tragic development of his late life.</p>

<p>He did tell me he was worried about his grandsons at ultra-liberal universities–he’d feel better if they went to Dartmouth I think! I assured him that if his grandsons were ultra liberal (they are moderates, in fact), it would be because they were raised in a politically liberal household. I invited him to direct his anger toward me and DH, the politically liberal liberal parents. At which point he started to rant about the dangers of Muslims slaughtering US citizens. On Christmas Eve no less. From a deeply spiritual man who has been in church every week of his life. I reminded him that I have many dear Muslim friends living all over the world and I simply don’t think of them as slaughtering sorts. I cut the phone call short.</p>

<p>Ironically, one of his deepest desires is to see his children practicing his religion but I have to say that I suspect his weekly church visits emboldened his sense of righteousness which in turn emboldened his sense of entitlement which in turn emboldened his sense of rage. From my perspective, his rage is completely out of proportion to his fortune and pure fact. He is a very very fortunate man–surrounded by loving family and community and prosperity. His bountiful estate in the midwest does not appear to be under any direct threat from Muslims of any nation.</p>

<p>On the other hand, I can see that my mother’s daily mass attendance has enriched and enhanced her humanity. Two examples, very close to me.</p>

<p>When you say ‘talking heads’, you mean CC talking heads, correct? You don’t think I read CC posters as ‘talking heads’ do you?</p>

283

<p>There are copious reasons why societies adopt religions. To explain the unknown. The Aztecs believed in many Gods, which explained ostensibly unknown phenomenon. Ehecatl, for instance was the wind god, who moved the sun and pushed the rain away. To unify. Tribes often created religions in an attempt to unify their people and have them wage war more barbarically and fervently (what with the divine paradise waiting them and all). To manipulate. As, Napoleon stated “Religion is excellent stuff for keeping common people quiet”. Rulers were able to manipulate people through religion; controlling and taxing the masses. To coddle. As cognitive thought developed people worried about being alone on the earth and people worried about ceasing to exist. To quell their fears religion promised an afterlife and instructed them they were guided by (a) kind figure(s) in the sky that profoundly cared about them. To identify. Many subscribe to religions because they embody their deepest personal needs and psychological values. The list continues.</p>

<p>But these are societal reasons not intrinsic, which I will not delve into.</p>

284

<p>I think there’s no life at all in this dead horse that’s being beaten on this thread.</p>

285

<p>“this is a serious question, if parents will deny at some point the existence of an invisible friend, how is that different from others questioning the belief in God…”</p>

<p>We do propagate the myths of the Easter Bunny, Santa Claus, and the Tooth Fairy as a tribute to our legacy. Maybe religion is the same. Maybe people don’t really believe in their god, but they don’t want to abandon their beliefs because of some unexplainable allegiance. Ultimately though adults tell children the truth, which is less than I can say for priests.</p>

286

<p>Quite the contrary. Religious beliefs are a big deal. We have a President who makes decisions based on his personal religious beliefs and others of us have beliefs that either are similar to his or conflict. When decisions are made based on these types of belief systems, there is no discussion, there is no logic, there is no compromise. We have a world which has gone crazy with religious strife and we, ourselves, are one of the most religious nation’s in the world. We are still arguing about evolution and intelligent design. Yup, I would say religions and belief systems are pretty important.</p>

287

<p>“We do propagate the myths of the Easter Bunny, Santa Claus, and the Tooth Fairy as a tribute to our legacy. Maybe religion is the same. Maybe people don’t really believe in their god, but they don’t want to abandon their beliefs because of some unexplainable allegiance.”</p>

<p>If you really wanted to know, you might actually try to ask them respectfully, and listen to the answer.</p>

288

<p>qwilde, that was a cheap shot. I am sure most priests are immersed in their religious beliefs and do indeed believe they are telling the truth and looking for the Truth.</p>

289

<p><a href=“http://atheism.about.com/od/popejohnpaulii/a/sexualabuse.htm[/url]”>http://atheism.about.com/od/popejohnpaulii/a/sexualabuse.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p><a href=“http://www.bishop-accountability.org/news2004_07_12/2004_08_24_Rowe_PriestsIn.htm[/url]”>http://www.bishop-accountability.org/news2004_07_12/2004_08_24_Rowe_PriestsIn.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p><a href=“http://www.seattlecatholic.com/article_20020719_The_Fallen_Angels_of_St_Sebastians.html[/url]”>http://www.seattlecatholic.com/article_20020719_The_Fallen_Angels_of_St_Sebastians.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

290

<p>“I am sure most priests are immersed in their religious beliefs and do indeed believe they are telling the truth and looking for the Truth.”</p>

<p>Mediums and clairvoyants are also "immersed in their beliefs”, so why are they regarded with so much skepticism and hostility? Yet we can believe that God talks to people. Also, according to your theories, they are just as credible as priests.</p>

<p>Priests are no different from psychics and religion is nothing more than sexed-up schizophrenia.</p>

291

<p>“If you really wanted to know, you might actually try to ask them respectfully, and listen to the answer.”</p>

<p>So far they haven’t provided any just cause for their belief in god.</p>

292

<p>Oh here we go. When backed into a corner bring in the Catholic priest scandal! The last refuge, etc.</p>

293

<p>Well then an atheist could never make an argument because religious duplicity, barbarity, irrationality, and psychosis provide us with too many refuges.</p>

<p>That wasn’t a ditch effort though, I was merely evincing that quite a few priests do not believe in what they preach.</p>

294

<p>"“If you really wanted to know, you might actually try to ask them respectfully, and listen to the answer.”</p>

<p>So far they haven’t provided any just cause for their belief in god."</p>

<p>That’s not what you asked be explained, which is likely why you wouldn’t be prepared to respectfully listen to an answer.</p>

295

<p>“We do propagate the myths of the Easter Bunny, Santa Claus, and the Tooth Fairy as a tribute to our legacy. Maybe religion is the same. Maybe people don’t really believe in their god, but they don’t want to abandon their beliefs because of some unexplainable allegiance.”</p>

<p>My statement affords one of two options: either they piously and ineffably believe in their god and its constituents, or they don’t but they want to retain their religion’s hereditary traits. </p>

<p>If they don’t believe in god then there is no point in arguing about their religion–conventional religion that is. Those that piously believe haven’t yet provided me with a sufficient cause (which is their duty since they have imagined their god so subsequently they should imagine some proof of its existence).</p>

296

<p>qwilde, if you don’t mind a personal question, would you explain how you acquired such an extensive background on religious beliefs?</p>

297

<p>I don’t know if you are subtly hinting I’m arrogant, but if you are sincere: I graduated from high school a couple years early and I’m taking a gap year. During my time off I have been self-studying quite a few subjects, but I really like to dabble in religion. Here is a few of the books I’ve been reading: </p>

<p>Aquinas Selected Writings
The Language of Mathematics
The Blind Watchmaker
The Selfish Gene
Letters to the Grave
Dialogues concerning natural religion
Descartes Secret Notebook
The Qur’an
Bible: King James
Social and Cultural Anthology
The Fabric of the Cosmos: Space, Time, and the Texture of Reality
The Elegant Universe: Superstrings, Hidden Dimensions, and the Quest for the Ultimate Theory
A Brief History of Time
Relativity: The Special and General Theory
Why I am not a Christian: and other essays
Unpopular essays
The Culture Code
The Principia
From so simple a beginning: Darwin’s Four great books
Newton’s Gift
Spinoza: Complete Works
Moral Minds
A Treatise on Human Nature
A Briefer History of time
Conversations of Socrates
The Universe in a Nutshell
Natural Atheism
Letter to a Christian Nation
The End of Faith
Atheist Universe
Theism, Atheism, and Big Bang Cosmology</p>

298

<p>No subtle hints. Very impressive and what has motivated this interest? From your comments about reason, logic, and science, I would expect that scientific topics would be of more interest.</p>

299

<p>Qwilde, let me break this down for you. No matter how much science you apply, no matter what logic you spew, no matter anything that can be neatly explained in a little paragraph, you (nor any other atheist, for that matter) will sway a truly religious person in their faith. That’s why we call it faith. No proof, no cold hard facts, only belief. </p>

<p>You seem to be insinuating, or rather outright stating, that religion is a ridiculous school of thought worthy of only a scoff. But that is your opinion. Please don’t attack someone of faith because you don’t like it. That is their opinion of what is present in their world. </p>

<p>I’m not going to attempt to quantify the existence of God for you, partly because that would be impossible, partly because I don’t want to be ridiculed (but, alas, too late for that). You can write off religion as crazy-person-talk and state facts that will back you up; that doesn’t mean a believer will take you seriously.</p>

300

<p>This is why I gave up on religious arguments my sophomore year in high school. I’ve never won an argument against a Christian, and I’ve never lost one. We both just leave feeling righteously indignant, and none the wiser. </p>

<p>I think Dawkins is a smart man, but also kind of an *******. I like him though, just beacuse he’s so flamboyant. I don’t think he’s really convincing any Christians, though. Still, it’s nice to have a Falwell equivalent (really superior, in my opinion) on the “atheist side”, if there is such a thing.</p>

<p>Can’t we all be friends?</p>