<p>Reincarnation in the Bible? Would you mind providing a reference for that, book, chapter, and verse?</p>
<p>As far as I know, reincarnation is mentioned nowhere in the Tanakh (OT), but is referred to in the Zohar, the most important book in the Jewish Kabbalistic tradition. However the Zohar is from the 13th c., a little late for Constantine…</p>
<p>It is not at all clear to me that there is a distinction, worthy to be called anything like a difference, in saying to a person of faith, ‘your god is fake, a lie’ than in telling a woman that her husband ‘is a despicable letch’ or a man that his ‘wife is an ugly whore’ or that either husband or wife is incapable of the ephemera of true love (if such imperceptible things actually exist in fact in the materialist cosmology, which I doubt) .</p>
<p>If–as qwilde, bay, digmedia and the rhetorically elegant CGM–you have no faith in anything beyond that which you can grasp, dissect or control, and therefore believe that there can be no god; than it might be well enough to say in effect, ‘I do not believe there can be a god or divinity’ and in so doing desist from the insulting evangelical arrogance of saying that ‘only a fool could believe in anything beyond the material world,’ or some such tyrannical nonsense as is done here, ad nauseum.</p>
<p>But that would require good manners, or in the very least adequate intellectual house-training; which would be expecting too much, of course. It is not part of the program.</p>
<p>Whistler! I just realized that you have reincarnated again! I knew your “voice” was familiar!</p>
<p>FountainSiren,</p>
<p>Please show where I have insulted your evangelical arrogance. Otherwise, use your “good manners” and “intellectual house-training” by apologizing to me immediately.</p>
<p>FS, I doubt anyone really cares much what you want to believe. Unfortunately, many if not most religious believers are determined to influence and control others with their beliefs. We have lots of people with fundamentalist beliefs who want to ban the teaching of science or modify it in some contorted way to match their beliefs. We have plenty of people who believe abortion is a sin and want to prohibit this practice by others. We have plenty of people who believe Sunday should be at least partially devoted to worship. These people are not content with their own worship, they want to prohibit others from their freedoms on Sunday. The Inquisition may be over, but we still have plenty of religious believers trying to impose their beliefs. That is why it is so amusing to see a few neo-atheists say, almost in jest, that it is their turn.</p>
<p>Bay,</p>
<p>Your indignation is without warrant; unless you mean to say that you are outing yourself and are in effect pleading to the remark applied without specificity above
</p>
<p>I merely asserted that
If, however, you do believe in God, or some such divinity, I will say that though I am wrong in saying you are an atheist, you seem, in this instance, very defensive on the point for a theist, as in your following remarks:
</p>
<p>
Lovely.</p>
<p>FSiren,</p>
<p>I have absolutely no intention of “pleading” to any of your remarks. Frankly, my beliefs are none of your business. There are many of us on this board who are capable of debating this issue without making personal accusations. You are obviously not one of them.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>…is there no end to it?
Let’s hope not.</p>
<p>FS:</p>
<p>I am an atheist, but that doesn’t mean I don’t “believe in anything beyond the material world.” I teach writing to the mentally ill, and I have to say that I believe fervently in art. Like religion, it can help people on a path towards meaning. It can make people feel connected to a deep source. </p>
<p>However–as much as I revere art, I try not to tell others it is the “only” path to inner peace. </p>
<p>I know some Christians who are wonderful people, whose relationship with their religion has made them loving and wise. </p>
<p>In art and in religion, the evil ones try to bully others.</p>
<p>As usual, the conversation reverts to “Christians.” Funny how it, (and others of its ilk), manage to predictably do this. :)</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Key word: trying.</p>
<p>Ban or modify teaching of science? I’ve seen “Inherit the Wind” a dozen times. I’m not worried.</p>
<p>Prohibit the practice of abortion? I trust our Supreme Court to deal with this.</p>
<p>Sunday devoted partially to worship? What, in our consumerist country? Surely you jest.</p>
<p>Edad,</p>
<p>Then may I humbly suggest that those who disagree with these people simply make their case, on the facts–not on the persons or beliefs of those who present them.</p>
<p>You say, for instance,
What if they believe abortion is wrong because they have felt something kicking in their wife, or sister or friend’s womb, and they have difficulty excepting that there was not a living intention or displeasure or playfulness in the kick? And in their moral terminology they call it a “sin” as well as a wrong or a crime.</p>
<p>Is this a distinction without a difference?</p>
<p>What if they believe capital punishment is a sin, instead of baldly and antiseptically wrong?
If their view is “progressive” is the rhetoric tolerable?
What if they believe waging war is a sin?
How about stealing?</p>
<p>As I was taught, bad people do bad things. </p>
<p>I was not taught black people do bad things, neither was I taught that Arabs or Jews do bad things; neither atheists or theists do bad things. I was largely educated to identify bad acts more than bad people–a version of the ever popular love the sinner hate the sin, I suppose.</p>
<p>I fail to see the problem here.</p>
<p>Democracies have committed atrocities: do we blame small “d” democrats? Do we blame democracy as such, or do we more reasonably blame a corruption of democracy?
The latter of course.</p>
<p>You go on to suggest that
So I must ask; do atheists, agnostics, etc not try to influence and control others with their deeply held beliefs and convictions?..on the wearing of fur? Smoking tobacco? Wealth redistribution? Taxation? Just war? Etc?</p>
<p>They would be, in fact, superhuman if they did not, I should think. So, finding them normal in the extreme, I believe they do try to influence and control others with their beliefs, as you say.</p>
<p>Fwiw, and notwithstanding my comments above, I find your thoughts on the matter, on the whole, well thought out and informative.</p>
<p>I am neither a fundamentalist nor a Christian. I am sure I would be a hard sell to a fundamentalist of any stripe…atheist included.</p>
<p>If religious people often hold views atheists find disagreeable, it may be the religious difference, and it may simply be a difference in people.</p>
<p>Lumping is easy to do, FS, but what makes you think atheists or agnostics oppose fur or tobacco or war? Now you are making religious and political ideologies identical.</p>
<p>Farawayplaces,</p>
<p>
I do not believe that Christians or Muslims claim that God is the only way to “inner peace.” Properly speaking, I believe, they claim only that their religion is the only way to God—which should be, of course, no concern to atheists who do not believe in God, though they may, as Buddhists, believe in a “way” to “inner peace.”</p>
<p>And to be clear, I always qualify my comments in this thread by broadening them to include not simply belief in god, but the impossibility of god as claimed by atheists. For this reason, it seems to me that you cannot claim that there cannot be a god and at the same time claim that there is an unknowable non-material realm of being/consciousness. The claim is contradictory, one cannot claim not to know and know at the same time.</p>
<p>To be even clearer, I do not believe that theists are better than atheists or even that, all other things being even, they will act better than atheists.</p>
<p>I do, however, romantically believe that any individual person will be better with faith than without it; it may be that religious people need religion to be as good as your standard atheist, I can’t say. But overall I believe the tradition of faith generally improves rather than degrades individual people. </p>
<p>The love of God, that is to say, the love of the spirit is of the same substance as the love of art or romance. Not all people have all three all the time or anytime; but I do believe all reflect and repond to the same transcendent reality.</p>
<p>Am,</p>
<p>not at all; I am simply offering a hypothetical. To the point–though stereotypical–I think it is indicative and edifying. Substitute what ever ‘cause’ you find remarkable and it all still applies.</p>
<p>I do not think its fair to say that all religion se their religion as the only way. For instance in Judaism only Jews are supposed to follow Jewish law. For everyone else there are 7 Noahide Law. This contrasts to Islam and Chistianity, which prostelyze others. Buddhaism and even Hinduism I think do try to covert others, but I may be wrong on those.</p>
<p>The fact that this is constantly repeated and only applied to Christianity makes me feel that this is not a discussion fo atheism vs religon but merely an attack on Christianity.</p>
<p>[edit: a correction to post 434]</p>
<p>I do not believe that Christians or Muslims believe that their religion is the “only” way to god; but in the main, the “best” way to god. Mainstream Islam and mainstream Christianity both believe that there are ways to god outside the dogma of their own discreet and wondrous faiths.</p>
<p>I am also certain that the same applies to Judaism.</p>
<p>Just for HH, because I know she loves this type of reading:</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.salon.com/books/feature/2007/01/08/fascism/[/url]”>http://www.salon.com/books/feature/2007/01/08/fascism/</a></p>
<p>Someone please remind me not to send my son to Brown.</p>
<p>Consider- internal versus external locus of control. </p>
<p>Remember you cannot use religious writings to prove anything unless your audience accepts them as given, and this audience does not. If a person can be offended by another’s lack of acceptance of his beliefs those beliefs must not be that strong/valid. </p>
<p>How can people justify a god that gives opposite messages to different groups of people? Who created religion- god or man? Again-WHY do we have religions? How many fundamentalists in any religion would be fundamentalists in a totally opposite religion if they had been brought up in the opposite culture? Think outside your box- why are you Christian instead of Hindu or Muslim? If there is monotheism the Hindus got it right- many manifestations of the same god, including Christ. Since people come in so many different bodies and innate personalities why doe one size/definition have to fit all? How can there be a “best” religion?</p>
<p>So, if you need the crutch of religion, pick one but realize other beliefs work better for other people. I have found that people definitely pick and choose their church/religion based on benefit to them- if the Sunday social club satisfies them they belong, or find one that does. Religions help satisfy psychological needs, which explains why people cling to beliefs despite the flaws. We need an unbiased sociologist to answer/unravel things…</p>
<p>hereshoping- If your beliefs are actually correct, why be afraid to expose your child to opposing views? Are you afraid they may discover the truth?</p>