<p>Seems like some of the discussion has turned more than a bit defensive. Let’s see if I understand the current thread. First we seem to have proof that atheists are evil because Stalin and many communists are atheists. Would a long listing of the world’s evil religious believers have any bearing on the argument. Next we seem to have the idea that religious beliefs are good because they are non-elitist and part of the beliefs of common man. I guess by that logic we should reject any knowledge and beliefs which are too difficult for the common man to grasp. That would certainly wreak havoc with much of theology. I guess we would still have that good, old time religion.</p>
<p>edad,</p>
<p>I think you are being a bit hard on atheists. </p>
<p>They are people; take them for what they are–no more, no less. More or less like theists with, perhaps, a somewhat more constricted cosmology and imagination.</p>
<p>Tough gig for a poet, of course.</p>
<p>more constricted imagination…i think not, but nice try</p>
<p>in fact I think atheists have great imaginations- not just “believing” but looking for answers</p>
<p>citymom</p>
<p>I ask this question with all sincerity…your post to this thread was the first one out of the box. You encouraged anyone reading this thread to give serious consideration to Mr. Dawkins book “The God Delusion”. You clearly - based on everything that I’ve read on this thread that you’ve posted - have at a minimum a strong inclination to believing that God does not exist. </p>
<p>I personally have no issue with that, yet you also tell us that your kids go to a Jesuit High School. Dawkins believes that any sort of religious education should be considered nothing short of child abuse. How do you reconcile your writing a tuition check to a Catholic school and your advocacy of Mr. Dawkins’ view of God, religion, life, science…?</p>
<p>^^^Undercover change agent? Missionary?</p>
<p>I can’t speak for cgm, but my parents sent me to Catholic school from 7th to 12th grade even though they refused to attend mass except for a family event like a wedding or christening. They were agnostic I guess. Religion, prayer, the idea of a benevolent God just had no meaning for them after the death of their first child. </p>
<p>Also, you can read an author you find compelling, and recommend others read his book for whatever they might take from it, or not, without necessarily buying into each and every one of his pronouncements. Duh.</p>
<p>“Those thinkers who cannot believe in any gods often assert that the love of humanity would be in itself sufficient for them; and so, perhaps, it would, if they had it.” – G.K. Chesterton</p>
<p>well, do some reserach on Jesuit education- yes there is are religion classes, but religion isn’t shoved down their throats</p>
<p>My Ds favorite class this year was world religions, and in fact her teacher recommended the Dawkins book to my daughter.</p>
<p>Dawkins himself has studied religion, probably more so than many “religious” people have</p>
<p>I have no conflict sending my children to such a wonderful school. The teachers are amazing, the curriculum rich and full, the staff generally very uptodate and “modern” in their philosophies</p>
<p>My D felt very comfortable in all their religion classes talking about whatever they wanted</p>
<p>The study of the bible was as much for its history as for its lessons, while as electives you can take more “religious” classes</p>
<p>The Jesuit tradition is to teach the whole person- science, morals, ethics, and to teach the young men and women to be there for and of the world</p>
<p>There is no issue for me…and if you look at Jesuit Schools, many are “independent”, and not affiliated with the Arch Diocese they are in</p>
<p>My Ds school, a few years ago, started a club for gay and lesbian students, a service club, but also geared toward issues that affect the community…the arch diocese didn’t like the idea and asked the school to reconsider…well, the school its staff, stood their ground and now that club is thriving</p>
<p>No instiution is perfect, but the positive aspects this school has far outways and questions I have regarding its foundation. Because they teach thinking, questioning, are provacative in the discussions, and the students feel comfortable discussing their faith- whereever that lands on the bell curve…I am proud of this school</p>
<p>My main points on this thread is prejudice agaisnt atheists is unwarranted. When you see posts saying that atheists have less imaginations…that is just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to how people view others who don’t believe in God</p>
<p>My Ds, both are atheists…a look toward the humanists “doctrine” of living in the here and now, taking care to be kind, caring, curious and the like</p>
<p>the quote above asserts that atheists don’t love humanity…what a rude statement to make</p>
<p>I know many religious people that hate…so there you go…and some here on this thread</p>
<p>to use a quote like that just shows how atheists have been and are regarded</p>
<p>The ever oppressed and misunderstood atheist; truly, it brings a tear of compassion to the sensitive eye.</p>
<p>
This is perhaps true, but after having read the author only a fool would then condemn the author and his craft as not only the worse book ever written but advise that it is likely to make its next reader a mindless slave to superstition and bigotry.</p>
<p>Such a person may be honestly viewed by others as being a bit ‘off,’ to say the very least.</p>
<p>“The ever oppressed and misunderstood atheist; truly, it brings a tear of compassion to the sensitive eye.”</p>
<p>Not to worry. With the changes in our society, it will not be long before the believers will be in the minority. When the pendulum swings …</p>
<p>edad: The pendulum is swinging? You haven’t heard yet about the American fascists–the Christian right and the war on America? Where have you been? :)</p>
<p>I don’t think the pendulum has started to swing. It is just at the apex and about to descend. The backlash due to George W seems to have killed the swing to the right.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Shoving versus marketing. Interesting question.</p>
<p>As an American whose family has been intertwined with Jesuits since the 1600’s (In the camp of “some of my very good friends are Jesuits”) and as a sister who saw a brother actively recruited by Jesuits for Opus Dei, I disagree cgm. </p>
<p>In mixed tertiary environments such as Gtown, the Jebbies may be quite tolerant. Behind closed doors, they are as sophisticated a marketing group as one might hope to meet–especially if they spot potential.</p>
<p>“I don’t think the pendulum has started to swing. It is just at the apex and about to descend. The backlash due to George W seems to have killed the swing to the right.”</p>
<p>The outrage about the Bush administration should inspire people to swing back to traditional conservatism. I would call the “conservatives” in the White House liberals on steroids. We don’t need more liberalism, we need less.</p>
<p>That said, the Republican Party is far gone at this point. I am a hardcore paleoconservative and I say to my American friends, think very seriously about not voting Republican in '08. Maybe, just maybe, a couple of terms out of the White House will allow true conservatives to reclaim that damn party.</p>
<p>For my part, I have renounced my affiliation with the Conservative Party of Canada (which is also knee-deep in the neoconservative agenda). I declare myself an independent, and I will be voting for true conservative candidates only, regardless of which party they belong to.</p>
<p>cheers: What are you trying to do? Give cgm a stroke or something?? :)</p>
<p>The “jebbies” are tolerant behind closed doors, believe me–or the Catholic Church would not be experiencing its recent spate of troubles–your brother, Opus Dei and the 1600’s notwithstanding. ;)</p>
<p>well, having experienced the Jesuit education for 4 years, and believe me, as you can imagine, i am pretty watchful, the philosophy for education is open, honest, imaginative, current, and wide open</p>
<p>I would not want Jesuits creating medical policy, I don’t like the church running hospitals, I do like the Jesuits aid of the poor, the teaching of helping others as a way of life</p>
<p>It is never an all or nothing with most things.</p>
<p>As for the bible, which is what I think FS is referring to…do you take it all to be infallible and literal? What about the Koran, if my memory is correct. How do you feel about the twisting and turning of its words to justify certain culteral activities?</p>
<p>FS And I don’t need your tears nor do my Ds, they would be quite worthless to me in this regard as we are quite content, successful, caring and enlightened people</p>
<p>Thanks to all who jumped in with comments. I wish all Catholic priests could be like Jesuits. I grew up in an intellectual, liberal diocese then have encountered two conservative ones- I have respect for some Jesuits, not for the nonthinking Catholics. From what the literature says about Christ he was a great person whether or not he was god, I would have liked to know him; I’m sure he would disagree with most of the writings about him and/or the interpretations.</p>
<p>It’s FS against the world, I don’t see any proreligion folks supporting his posts. I would say atheists are individualists, no two are alike- there is no book or doctrine to follow, you have to think and come to your conclusions on your own.</p>
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<p>“Nonthinking” meaning not aligned with your particular beliefs on certain issues, I presume.</p>
<p>I think G.K. Chesterton is very wise: I trust God to love me far more than I do my fellow human beings to do so. I am not able to put my faith in man alone; no offense to the “caring and enlightened people” among us, of course.</p>
<p>Another great Chesterton quote:
</p>