@thumper1 — I will keep an open mind. And I think I’ll find whatever I do specialize in interesting. That’s a big part of rotations after all.
What should people who fail the Step Ones do? Should they just pursue something completely different? What are good careers for people who fail out of that or Med School in general?
Careers for failed med students? Nothing that involves medicine/healthcare.
And you’re getting way, way way ahead of yourself. Stop perseverating on your medical specialty. You have to get into medical school first. You haven’t even started college.
BTW, it’s not just STEP exams (and there are 3 USMLE exams all med student take, plus 3 COMLEX exams if one is attending an DO program) one needs to pass, med students need to pass a whole battery of standardized exams called NBME shelf exams, one for each clinical rotation. Fail the exam; fail the rotation, no matter how good your preceptor evaluations/patient satisfaction scores are. OTOH, a super high shelf score won’t remediate poor evaluations by your preceptors and your patients–you’ll still fail the rotation.
There are lots and lots of way to fail out of med school and only a few of them involve failing Step 1. Unprofessional behavior. Mental health issues. Poor communications skills. Not being a team player. Inappropriate social behavior. Failed OSCEs (yet another set of standardized exams all med students take that test patient encounter skills)
I think you’ve misunderstood me. The core of medical training in the US is becoming a doctor. period, full stop.
“Certainly, people don’t go into medical school willing to go into ANY specialty”
" I would find it unfortunate for myself to end up in the field of dermatology, gynecology, urology, psychiatry, orthopedics or any form of pediatrics"
You need to talk to some non-neurologists before you continue exploring. You will not have the luxury of declining your Peds rotations because you consider pediatricians second class citizens. You will not get to opt out of delivering babies during your training.
Maybe for now you should just concentrate on college??? You’ve been sidetracked with your interest in neurology and maybe getting back to basics before you get too far along will help you. Study math, bio, chem, physics, get good grades. Take a two semester statistics sequence. Then evaluate what you want to be when you grow up?
You sound like a humane, passionate, interesting person. Surely there are at least five other careers you could learn about and explore???
I have never met a single high school, college or medical school graduate in my life who didn’t want to be something more specific than “a doctor.” That’s what a child says when they’re four-years old: “I wanna be a docta’.” There’s a clip of me saying that when I was four on an old tape somewhere.
Everyone I have met in pre-med program has had a specific goal in mind of what they wanted to do. Along those same lines, everyone I have met managed to attain those goals or otherwise formed new goals. I have never heard of a single individual being forced into doing a specialty completely different from what they wanted to do. It’s downright Draconian to force someone into studying something that doesn’t interest, or else walk away with hundreds of thousands down.
The truth is people don’t enter the medical field just wanting to “help people.” If they just wanted to do that, they would join the Peace Corp or shovel green beans in a Styrofoam container at a food drive. Certainly, people don’t work tirelessly day in and day out for over a decade without helping a single person if they want to help people. The truth is, people become doctors because 1. they want to help people and — perhaps just as importantly — 2. because they are interested in the study behind it. How do you think people would manage to study so hard for so long if they actually had no interest in what they were studying? Now, how many people do you think go into medical school giddy about the study of anal cavities? Some, for sure, but not many. Certainly, you cannot make me believe that every successful medical school student goes into medical school daydreaming about doing that. Or what about hand doctors? How can thousands of people possibly enter medical schools every years eager to drop hundreds of thousands of dollars to examine hands for the rest of their life.
The truth is that people have their story — they have their reason. Mr. Gastroenterologist probably has some gastrointestinal issue, or maybe he saw an awesome gastroenterologist when he was young. Mrs. Hand Specialist probably had some similar experience that made her specifically interested in hands.
The only way your theory could be correct is if every person entering medical school either JUST wants to help people, or thinks the structure of the human hand is just as intellectually engaging as the infinite complexity of the brain and nervous system.
Again, I’m not saying that one kind of doctor is worse than another, but I am saying that, to be a content hand specialist, gastroenterologist, or whatever, you have to have a reason beyond the vague “I want to help people,” because there are far easier ways to do just that.
I don’t care too much about what kind of town I work in, nor do I despise family practice in any way. I would actually be far happier as a general practitioner than as someone specializing in a specific body system that is ultimately uninteresting to me in and of itself. If all you are saying is that I should be prepared to be a general practitioner, then I have no qualms. You seemed to be insinuating, though, that I should be fine with literally any specialty, which I don’t see why that’s necessary if I would have the choice to just be a primary care doctor or work in family medicine.
Medical schools don’t just give you one really weird specialty and leave you with that. If you don’t do well enough — or get unlucky — you may be unable to get into a preferred specialty. That does not mean, however, that you’ll be forced to go into ONE specialty like pediatrics. If I get told by an advisor that neurology is a no-go, then I’ll pursue the next thing. I highly doubt I’ll have zero luck with the 15 or more specialties I am interested in (including the non-sub-specialized fields you mention). That would be the only situation in which I’d ever become a podiatrist, gastroenterologist or gynecologist — they’re just not my thing. What I’m saying is that everyone has preferences. They form a list of their favorite to least favorite specialties, and they see what they can do. What is deeply flawed about that?
@WayOutWestMom — As to the exams you menton, they sound scary of course but whatever. As you say, it’s not really relevant to me right now. Plus, if I fail out, then at least I know a little bit more about what I am and am not good at. If I fail out, medicine is not for me, and I can move on with my life.
Vince, you have a lot to learn about compassion and selflessness. Being a doctor isn’t better than JUST joining the Peace Corp or “shoveling” green beans in a container. Wow.
You have some strange ideas about how things are supposed to work, whether it’s being at college or going to med school. Just get into college first. And I suggest that you try escaping your comfort zone for a while. You need perspective.
@blossom — I don’t see any type of physician as second-class. I deeply admire all good physicians, because I know the good ones genuinely care and have worked very hard. The world needs all the types of doctors I mentioned not wanting to be. All I’m saying is that I don’t want to work as one of those specialties for the rest of my life. I have one life and then I’m dead; I don’t want to spend my one life in a specialty that I’m not deeply, deeply interested in. If I can’t be a neurologist, there are a dozen or more other specialties I would be happy pursuing, including general practice by the way. I’m just saying that I wouldn’t be a super specific kind of doctor that works with something I’m not interested in working with exclusively.
I’m just discussing this for the intrigue of it. Obviously, this information has absolutely no relevance for a number of years, but I do want to plan my future realistically and I believe that means understand things fully.
I will undergo so much change in the next few years; I’ll honestly probably be a much different person — at least in terms of interests, career goals, etc. in the next decade or so. In college, I will, as you say, “look into and explore” many other careers. I will take classes in humanities, science, mathematics, etc. etc. etc. And then I’ll happily go on every rotation they have for me in med school — I never said anything about not wanting to explore! I will be a podiatrist and a gastroenterologist for a day, and, who knows, maybe I’ll fall in love. But the important part — and what won’t change — is that I’ll want to love what I do before I devote my life to it. I hope you can agree that that is at least a sensible position to take.
You can try to pass the Step one test up to four times.
And yes, there are people who go to residency interviews, and then don’t match to that residency. They then enter a secondary match process called SOAP where the apply to residency spots that didn’t fill. And sometimes those applicants do have to do a residency in a different discipline than they originally wanted. But they are still doctors and for most, that’s what matters.
I want to add…your flip comment about joining the Peace Corps was just that…flip. Clearly you know nothing about becoming a Peace Corps volunteer and serving an assignment. It’s not like a vacation in another country. It’s a competitive application process, challenging training, and a commitment to get a job done in a strange country. Be careful about making these very flip comments.
Oh…and you won’t be doing a podiatry rotation on medical school…unless you go to podiatry school to become a podiatrist.
[quote=“VinceLestrade, post:24, topic:2083520”]
I have never met a single high school, college or medical school graduate in my life who didn’t want to be something more specific than “a doctor.” That’s what a child says when they’re four-years old: “I wanna be a docta’.” There’s a clip of me saying that when I was four on an old tape somewhere.
Everyone I have met in pre-med program has had a specific goal in mind of what they wanted to do. Along those same lines, everyone I have met managed to attain those goals or otherwise formed new goals. I have never heard of a single individual being forced into doing a specialty completely different from what they wanted to do. It’s downright Draconian to force someone into studying something that doesn’t interest, or else walk away with hundreds of thousands down.
The truth is people don’t enter the medical field just wanting to “help people.” If they just wanted to do that, they would join the Peace Corp or shovel green beans in a Styrofoam container at a food drive. Certainly, people don’t work tirelessly day in and day out for over a decade without helping a single person if they want to help people. The truth is, people become doctors because 1. they want to help people and — perhaps just as importantly — 2. because they are interested in the study behind it. How do you think people would manage to study so hard for so long if they actually had no interest in what they were studying? Now, how many people do you think go into medical school giddy about the study of anal cavities? Some, for sure, but not many. Certainly, you cannot make me believe that every successful medical school student goes into medical school daydreaming about doing that. Or what about hand doctors? How can thousands of people possibly enter medical schools every years eager to drop hundreds of thousands of dollars to examine hands for the rest of their life.
The truth is that people have their story — they have their reason. Mr. Gastroenterologist probably has some gastrointestinal issue, or maybe he saw an awesome gastroenterologist when he was young. Mrs. Hand Specialist probably had some similar experience that made her specifically interested in hands."
My daughter is in her 3rd year if a 7 year residency. Prior to going to med school and until she did rotations her 3rd year, NOT ONCE did she ever say to me “I’m interested in (insert any specialty).” She told me that she decided during her rotations that she decided on surgery because every day she would go home and was excited to talk about her day. THAT is how she chose what to go into, not some experience she had growing up like you cite in your examples. What would that have been in her case? She liked to cut people?
I agree with the other posters that you are putting the cart WAY before the horse and that you have a lot to learn about what being a Dr. really is.
Good luck to you.
Again, you missed my point but whatever. And many hand doctors (as you dismissively describe them) are working at the forefront of cutting edge medicine combining robotics, engineering, neuroscience (how do you think a mechanical hand works without understanding the functioning of the brain?) and materials science. The war in Afghanistan has fundamentally changed the way medicine looks at prosthetics… in the old days, many of the injured would have died in the field or en route to a hospital. Emergency medicine has become so sophisticated that soldiers are now living- often with horrible and catastrophic injuries- but they are alive, and can achieve independent living with medical intervention.
Enter the “hand doctor”. You should read up on it. You will likely find it just as fascinating as neurology. And might help you think about a Plan B.
For now, OP, you need to focus on a college that will help you meet your goals while exploring all college has to offer. If you are a senior, then I assume you have applied and are waiting on acceptances. Do a deep dive into those schools and curriculum. Sounds as though you have a strong connection to issues related to neurology, especially Alzheimers. Check out the schools options - D’s honors program, for example, required a senior thesis that could be on any topic regardless of major (engineer major did one on music and brain). Her program also facilitated undergraduate research - another way to explore interests. See how easy it is to do any independent study.
Take a neuroscience course. Colleges may very, at Ds the only option as UG was a minor or cognate but you could earn the pre-reqs by taking biology or psychology. Explore psychology as a major - maybe graduate study in neuroscience would be your jam. Other people interact with Alzheimer patients to make their lives, and lives of families better. I have a cousin who is a nurse manager at CCRC who is especially passionate about dementia care. They are starting new program in memory care using a Montesorri (sp?) approach. Public health may also interest you.
As others have said, you can have any major and be accepted into med school. Just look at the requirements carefully. If you are an English major you may have the option of a science for non-majors but that won’t fly for med school applications. Just don’t limit yourself by missing out on some requirement. Ds roommate went back and forth about med school and didn’t decide for sure until end of Junior year, but she did have all the coursework and grades she needed so that all she had to do when she decided was to study for MCAT. She had three options of where to go for med school.
I don’t remember seeing what schools you are looking at, but be sure they have enough offerings for you to be able to explore your interests. Oldest D loved her highly rated LAC but a couple of semesters it was hard to get into classes outside her major. Check all this out now. Going into college with a goal is fine but keep an open mind.
Wow, Vince,…just wow
Do you know what are the 3 most important traits for anyone who wants to be a physician?
–Compassion
–Humility
–Self awareness
Right now you seem to be lacking in all three.
No one is going to force a med student to enter any field they don’t want. (Because if you don’t want to be in a particular specialty, then PDs certainly aren’t going to want you at their program. PDs would rather let a training slot go unfilled than take an applicant who doesn’t want to be there.)
But it is definitely possible to end up un-match for residency (and have $300K in debt) if you are not willing to be open-minded about your specialty. It happens every year.
Yes, med students usually have aspirations for a particular specialty going into med school. That’s normal human behavior, but they are also aware that getting their desired specialty may not be possible. And they accept that. They want to be physician more than they want to a ABC or XYZ specialist.
I have suggestion for you. Instead of putting in more hours shadowing neurologists and gorging on neuroscience, try volunteering with disadvantaged communities in your home town. Get outside your comfort zone. Serve meals to the homeless. Fill baskets at a food pantry. Tutor students who attend academically poor and underfunded schools. Mentor a mentally ill adolescent. Teach English to recently immigrated families. Answer phones for a rape or suicide crisis hotline. Help set up safe-haven shelters for runaway LGBTQ+ youths. Create a community garden space in a food desert to help low income families get healthful meals.
These are exactly the kind of selfless, altruistic activities expected of future physicians. As is serving in the Peace Corp.