New Education Secretary: Will it make a difference?

In what way is my comment political? I am providing factual information relevant to the new Secretary of Education nominee. The question was: What are the qualifications of Betsy DeVos to be Secretary of Education? Many people have noted that she is not an educator. I am presenting facts which have been widely reported in the media and which we might plausibly think played a role in her nomination.

There have been quite a few articles about the DeVos family and Erik Prince in Forbes, the WSJ, the Intercept, etc. People who are interested can look them up.

Noting that she is not an educator speaks to whether you consider her to be qualified or not. The rest of the queep you posted is purely political and has no bearing on how she will or won’t perform as Secretary of Education.

People who are interested can tell the difference.

Funding is a factor but not nearly so much as the parents, teachers, and admin - usually in that order in my experience.

There are bad charters but there are also many bad public schools with bad teachers. I like charters as they give the publics a nice dose of competition. Certainly I can see that charters can hurt publics by taking away students with active/involved parents but until the publics get better those parents will always seek better solutions.

Ultimately, we all need to have a portion of highly-educated kids graduating our schools to ensure we remain competitive. I hope Ms. DeVos is successful!

I’m uncertain about whether charters are a permanent solution. But I feel so uneasy about leaving kids with potential (however we want to define that) in subpar, under-performing schools which have not shown they’re on a track to improvement. Considering the proportions of poor in these schools, and often along racial lines, I can’t get away from finding this its own form of segregation and challenging these kids’ potential futures.

Talking about how some charter schools are crappy or for-profit, that current alternatives are some distance, or that some better schools are already full, feels like the same problem all over again- ie, leave them where they are.

Of course parents play a role. But I think we assume poorer parents, across the board, are disinterested. We could do a better job of giving the brightest a better chance.

Don’t forget we’ve got public magnets now, many quite successful, many not in the local neighborhoods. In some states, different sorts of test-in schools, some revered. And in many areas, the vo-tech is some distance. Of course they drain from the brain pool at the local schools. Yes, the transpo has to be available. And of course, expansion of charters could be done on the local level.

It’s also misleading to assume vouchers would go to wealthy families. Or fatten the coffers of haute privates on the public dime.

Agree that an active/involved parent can be and presumably often is a poor parent.

In my state, a lot of the vouchers have gone to families with students already enrolled in private schools, i.e., not necessarily the families that needed the financial assistance.

If so, if these are not poorer families struggling to pay tuition, then that would need to be dealt with.

We might hope that Betsy DeVos’ husband Dick DeVos and brother Erik Prince will in no way influence how she performs as Secretary of Education, but that would only be a hope. We might also be concerned that they would. This remains to be seen.

This reminds me of the way reporters make up false stories and hysteria without having any shred of proof of anything and providing none.

Exactly how do you know her husband and brother do not have great ideas, which could help improve education in the public schools? Have you talked to her husband and brother and they have given you insight? Or are you making up a doomsday scenario and hope sheeple fall for your insinuations? I am going to guess you are just making it up to fit your narrative of the world, and you know nothing about what her husband or her brother will advise or not advise re public education.

And how do you know the money is not going to families to stop them from incurring extreme debt in order for their kids to go to those schools? Those families should be allowed to have relief as well.

And exactly what does “a lot” mean? More than you would like or an actual percentage? You do sound like a reporter biasing a story because you are already against the practice, even if the practice is on the up and up.

http://archive.jsonline.com/news/education/wisconsin-voucher-school-programs-post-enrollment-gains-b99604714z1-337731621.html
Report in 2015 showed that 75 percent of students were already enrolled in private schools. However, the program might be changed to restrict it to low-income students.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/lauriebennett/2011/12/26/the-ultra-rich-ultra-conservative-devos-family/
https://theintercept.com/2016/03/24/blackwater-founder-erik-prince-under-federal-investigation/
http://www.breitbart.com/radio/2016/11/04/erik-prince-nypd-ready-make-arrests-weiner-case/
http://www.forbes.com/sites/jamespoulos/2014/01/25/ex-blackwater-ceo-erik-prince-africa-neocolonial-with-china/#2cd2497f46dc
http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052702303465004579324650302912522

The extended family including the parents and the kids have at times, differing political views. Time will tell how it all plays out , but generally the extended family spends their time, energy and money devoted to education and the arts, not a negative in my mind. Considering teacher (unions) disliked Arne Duncan, it’s interesting that they may dislike Betsy DeVos…makes me wonder what the heck the unions think should be done to make our children’s early education stronger LOL they have had decades to figure it out so I look forward to seeing what this change will bring. Clearly I’m in favor of returning to a more localized approach to education. I know my kids came out of high school with gaps in their knowledge in history, in English literature, along with several different and, to me, confusing approaches to basic math skills etc…the teachers were so forced with prescribed materials to meet this test or that requirement and techniques that sometimes it made no sea possible root cause.

MODERATOR’S NOTE

If you all want this thread to continue, do not attack each other and keep the discussion to the qualifications of the individual and policies. I’ve already had to delete some posts.

For those who have charters/vouchers in their states- are these schools required to take all applicants regardless of race, religion, disability- physical or educational? Are they required to continue to educate trouble-makers even if that means an alternative campus? Are they required to provide meals to kids who are not guaranteed one at home? Do these schools have to participate in the state accountability system? Provide classes required of the publics?

I am trying to understand if they are being held to the same standards as public schools. The initial hearings in our state seem to be advocating that they NOT be held to those standards in which case I don’t see how they can be compared to a public school from a performance standard?

“College students get federal need grants to attend religious institutions. How is that different?”

The school property tax I pay (and I assume it works the same everywhere) only goes to my k-12 district. I don’t want this money to be diverted to any private school. So any voucher system will be removing the tax $ I pay directly to my district.

I say this as a parent who chose to send her kid to a private Catholic prep high school.

“Funding is a factor but not nearly so much as the parents, teachers, and admin - usually in that order in my experience.”

That isn’t entirely true. Throwing extra money at troubled schools often doesn’t work (in a lot of cases, as the OP said, there are deep seated problems and the money often is spent on the wrong things), but it also is a fact that underfunding schools hurts education. If you look at the top performing school districts in this country, most of them are at the top of school spending, districts like Scarsdale in NY, Basking Ridge in NJ, some of the others in the country, you see places with a large tax base with heavy spending on schools. Meanwhile, trying to stay away from politics, places in rural areas and the like proud of their low tax approach to things, have school systems that generally don’t produce well, don’t have the facilities for things, etc…

It is true that schools are mostly a local thing, but the federal government is involved. Some states get up to 40% of their spending from the federal government (average is about 9%), some get very little (NJ as a whole last I checked was well under the average/typical), so the government has huge carrot/stick to use (for example, Obama used that in North Carolina with the transgender bathroom issue, and NC gets significant federal funding).

I don’t have a problem with a non educator being head of the DOE, what I do have problems with is what they have shown in the past. For example, one of the fundamental reasons for the public schools in this country, one of the reasons that states were required to have them in the first place, was the thought that getting citizens educated was important to the country, both in terms of voting and in developing a country free from the imbalances of other countries, especially the rigid class system of England. Public funding of the schools, rather than requiring people to pay for it, was designed deliberately that a poor kid would have opportunity for an education.

DeVos troubles me on many fronts, based on her past. First of all, promoting for profit public schools , paid for by public funding, is a disaster area, the profit motive is a disaster IMO (and this has been proven out, some cities privatized ambulance services and found the price, the ambulances were understocked and the EMT’s often had to beg at hospitals to get what they needed, and response times plummeted). The profit motive means those running them have a master (and given her background, again, likely to be things like hedge funds and the like, which has been who has been behind privatized EMT services and jails, for example) and they want not just profits, but increasing ones…and where does that money come from? I hear from those supporting it the profit motive causing ‘efficiences’, but that basically boils down to cutting costs…and how do you do that? You increase class size, you pay teachers less (so who will they end up with, the best or the desperate?), you don’t pay for facilities, you don’t buy new textbooks, etc…and who gets hurt? The kids.

Likewise the voucher issue bothers me given her background and also quite honestly her faith. The reformed Christian church is a very conservative, generally fundamentalist Christian denomination, and that is important. A lot of the push for vouchers and school choice has not come from education advocates, it has come from conservative Christians seeking money to pay for their kids to go to Christian schools that teach the way they want, rather than improving the overall education experience. Will someone with those kinds of religious beliefs act out of desire to improve the schools, or benefit those with similar aspirations at creating schools ‘that don’t challenge their beliefs’? Anyone remember the ‘academies’ down south (that Hillary Clinton as a young woman went undercover to bust), where they basically created supposedly private academies that were publicly paid for and were lily white?

And as I posted earlier, school vouchers to allow “school choice” don’t have a record of working. There have been several attempts at this, privately funded and some public experiments, where kids in bad school districts were given vouchers to go to private schools (that mostly were parochial schools, given that typical private schools tuition costs, the vouchers would pay only a fraction of the tuition required, not to mention that many private schools wouldn’t take the kids, the kind of prep schools and montessori schools you might think of). The problem is in at least Milwaukee and Charleston, SC (I may be wrong the exact city in number 2), over time the kids who moved to the new school on voucher didn’t do any better than the kids who stayed behind.

Will a DOE under her want to create an environment where kids are taught to respect differences, or one that will turn the other way and allow schools to do what they often have done, deliberately ignore the plight of those bullied (especially LGBT people, se DeVos faith which is not exactly kumbaya love everyone…).

I have no problem with experiments and I have no love for the NEA or the local branch, the NJEA…that said, though, if we are going to experiment I want this done in a way where we can look at the results, define them. If we set up charter schools, if the DOE influences that, then I want to see standards, too, ie if they in effect force states to set up charters, will their be federal standards they have to meet, too? Or will it be something stupid, like “we expect X % of public schools to be charters”. I don’t want to see them for profit, because there is absolutely no incentive for a for profit school to provide a good education. Yeah, I have heard the argument “they would be competing” for students, so would have to be good, but if the for profit charters are a large part of what is out there, would a parent choose a public school that is failing or in desperation, take one of the for profit schools…and if that failed, they might pull the kid of out of school A, put him in B, but if B is a for profit, likely it won’t be any better, because they have no reason to. If we put the emphasis on for profit charters, and don’t have standards, then why should they create a quality education, because there won’t be competition, it would be an oligopoly (and oh, yeah, anyone wanna take a bet that if this goes through under Devos, the schools in a state would be run by maybe a small handful of operators…oligopoly). Now if they offered the for profit schools some kind of bonus if they met standards (and that would raise a troubling question, what standards? Would this be another ‘teach to the test’ mess?), then maybe but we also would need to be looking at facilities and the like students have, too, and I personally am dubious a for profit school can produce real results…need I remind people of for profit colleges and what a disaster they have turned out to be, nothing more than mills offering a crap education , running mostly off federal education grants.

Like I said, I have no problem with someone outside the education experience trying new things, but given her track record and her beliefs, I question her motivations and where she would take things, subsidizing religious academies and making money for hedge funds should not be the goal of the DOE.

“The most important aspect of her job is the part that is federal…Pell grants, federal loans etc. I’m not sure we need someone at the classroom level. In the past decade federal spending increased at least 30% with programs for low-income and disabled but by far, the greatest dollars under her new department are Pell, federal loans etc. Taking a close look at existing spending, managing the budget and looking at something with fresh eyes are far, far more important to me than the fact that she never stood in front of a classroom.”


Betsy DeVos has no experience in higher education, as far as I can tell (and I have followed her for years - any MI resident who has been involved in public school funding issues knows of her). I am sure she can figure it out, of course. But my problem is rooted in Mrs. DeVos’s many years of lobbying for the voucher system. I see a big battle looming … one that will work to get federal laws enacted to provide vouchers at the K-12 level. The money for this has to come from somewhere. Frankly, I am concerned that such a move will siphon money from the higher ed need-based budget.

In addition, I am very concerned about federal loans, to be completely honest. I do not want to see a return to bank lending (from the current Direct Loan system). This worries me a lot, because I think some of the folks who will be in charge lean that way.

Other things about post-secondary education that may be relevant:

  • Federal financial aid policies that have resulted in contraction of the for-profit sector in recent years.
  • College handling of sexual misconduct claims.

http://hechingerreport.org/bid-show-colleges-worth-money-reveals-surprises/ is about the gainful employment rule. It affects the for-profit sector the most, but some programs at public colleges run afoul of it as well.