<p>According to CA law, no. A hospital cannot, for example, say that someone who fails the cold water test but breathes spontaneously in an apnea test is dead. They still must be in accordance with established medical protocols. They aren’t given carte blanche to make a brain death or not determination based on whatever criteria they desire. Jahi has already been declared legally dead. Her accepting facility (if in California) cannot declare her now alive because they have a different definition of dead. She has already been declared medically and legally dead. Apparently they can accept and treat legally dead patients, but their definition of dead is irrelevant. Will a higher court accept a different hospital’s definition of dead? No way. She has been documented as having NO cerebral blood flow. That’s a dead brain.</p>
<p>BTW, that article you linked required registration to read.</p>
<p>Along with all the wonderful information which is now at our fingertips, so too is misinformation. All of the stories about brain dead people “waking up” and making full recoveries get splashed from one end of the world to another in a matter of seconds. People read these stories, don’t question the veracity, and run with it. </p>
<p>Even on my nursing forum, there is misinformation put out there as fact. One “nurse” claimed that a patient who had been completely nonresponsive for YEARS woke up one day, leaped out of bed, walked to the bathroom and proceeded to sing at the top of her lungs. She then walked to the cafeteria and demanded food because she was “starving.” Ok, any nurse would know that anyone bed bound for years, regardless of the reason, would be physically incapable of leaping, walking, or singing without months of physical therapy to reverse the muscle weakness and atrophy which would have occurred after years of being in a coma. Yet this poster insisted she witnessed this event. :rolleyes:</p>
<p>There’s a lot of confusion, for sure. However, if someone calls the local TV station in any city and claims that the very well-respected, large, & nearby hospital is planning to kill their child in the morning after botching a routine surgery and the family wants to stop it, reporters will come. That’s their job. From that point it was a big snowball of many mistakes, mistruths, and probably even some lies.</p>
<p>When I think about this situation, I always imagine that little girl, alive at 7 years old, ten years old or even just two months ago. I imagine if she had known what was going to happen to her. That not only would she die as a result of complications from surgery but that her body would become a prop in a soap operatic nightmare.</p>
<p>I wish that somebody had thought about HER when they made the series of bad decisions that have led them where they are now.</p>
<p>Again, I make it clear that unless there are some essential things left out of what I have read in the situation, I do not agree with what the McMath family is doing and would not advise them to take this route.</p>
<p>But, they can. So they are. I don’t blame the family for going public as they felt that was the best way to get their way, and now the publicity can do little but cause problem. It makes sense to me. THe judge ruled in their favor, they have found a place to keep her until they feel she is dead. I don’t get the fuss about all of this. Let the family keep the child’s heart beating if that’s what they want and can get some facility to keep and care for her. At what point the courts will force the family/facility to give up the body is up to the judicial system. </p>
<p>There have been situations where the medical profession has been wrong. i remember the big uproar about removing Karen Ann Quinlan in my day. When they pulled the plug on her, she didn’t die. I agree with Eyemanmom that the trend has so changed, and I do find this scary that one is now more likely to be declared dead, especially if somoene with a cooler is waitng for one of your organs.</p>
<p>cpth - My bet is that there is a lot left out of whatever you are reading. This has been going on for well over a month and there have been a whole lot of family oddities and legal twists and turns and many (most) press reports have been more than just a little inaccurate. The hospital’s side of the story…and there is one…is unavailable because of privacy laws. Also, KAQ was not brain dead.</p>
<p>I don’t think anybody wants her organs at this point. She died Dec 12th.</p>
<p>What if, just if, the hospital made a mistake and Jahi is NOT brain dead?</p>
<p>In April this year, my mom was diagnosed unable to eat or drink at the hospital due to advanced Parkinsons. Prior to entering the hospital, she was not able to eat or drink for over three days. When she got into the hospital, she was immediately put on tube feeding through nose.</p>
<p>Well we did agree with the hospital’s diagnose and pull the feeding tube. She was put into hospice and without feeding, she was predicted death within days.</p>
<p>Lo and behold, as soon as she got into hospice, she recovered and start eating/drinking… She is alive until today.</p>
<p>I am not comparing her with KAP in terms of sequence of events, but it terms of media debate and predictions of the professionals, vs what happened. The hospital’s side of this is more transparent than usual as the case went to court and things were discussed for the record and the media. Also, the girl si dead under CA law, right? Which ends the HIPAA issues.</p>
<p>Artlovers, she is brain dead. That has been established by a number of doctors and those in the field. BUt there are different ways to define brain dead. Also, I think part of the issue is that the family does not want to accept brain dead as their definiton of dead, but wants the heart to stop. But with machinery keeping her going, who knows when that will be. It’s a very sad situation all around, and probably should not have gone this far in terms of media blitzing. That the family now has her in a place willing to keep her heart going, breathing with a vent, and doing all else needed, it’s now up to them and the family as to when to let go.</p>
<p>It’s not unusual for a hospital to give a family time after it is noted that a person is brain dead to wait to take the body off the rest of the life support and get processed for the funeral. The question then comes how much more time? There are a number of people who have been kept alive for along time after they could be declared dead. This is not really an all new thing. IT just came to the attention of the media, in part because the hospital would not cooperate with the family in what they wanted done. The hospital did not want to continue the life support, nor did they want to do certain things requested in gettingJahi moved to another facility, and that’s where some settlement and compromise had to be made.</p>
<p>Probably, they would call a press conference if that happened. lol.</p>
<p>Six doctors examined her. They got three second opinions and one ordered by the court. No-one is wishing her dead. The medical records show decomposition. I don’t know, could be a mistake. We’ll see.</p>
<p>I think there has been a fundamental shift. People (at least Christians) use to talk about going home to see the Lord, and going where there is no pain- that sort of thing. Now, it seems as if some people think that death is something you can beat. Sorry, folks- can’t beat death in the long run.</p>
<p>My mom’s diagnose was given by many doctors including the Parkinson’s Institute and the head of the Hospital in-charge of that department. Three physical therapist also examined her condition as well. It was not an easy decision and never was.</p>
<p>That’s not all that unusual for hospice patients (although not the majority). Often times, people will have been receiving treatment for a disease that is focused on recovery, and the treatments can be harsh. Once a treatment is stopped, and the hospice team starts to provide medications for just symptom relief, patients often can enjoy some of the things they had not been able to for a while. It’s amazing the things people will start to do again, temporarily, when pain is successfully managed. People that work in hospitals don’t typically see patients on hospice, because by definition, hospice is meant to keep people out of the hospital when at all possible.</p>
<p>Doesn’t HIPPA survive death? Anyway, the family would not allow the hospital to disclose anything about her treatment so all we have is their side. And, their side has some big holes and evolving angles in it. It just does.</p>
<p>It’s nowhere near as simple as mean hospital says she dead and we don’t agree. Not even close.</p>
<p>No. It’s not simple. We may never know the hospital’s side of this story.</p>
<p>Artlover,
There is an enormous difference between the example of a living person recovering from an illness that was expected to be terminal and the reanimation of a dead human. Jahi is not going to recover. She is dead. All of the doctors who examined and tested her agree that she is dead. She had no blood flow to the brain. This was proven on CT imagery. No blood flow for a month. What do you think would happen to your foot if the entire blood flow was cut off for a month? It would die. Her brain is dead. Her heart is still beating because the system that governs that does not come from the brain. She is not going to come back to life and prove the doctors wrong. I wish that she could, but she won’t.</p>
<p>was your mom unable to eat because she was dead by every measure and diagnosed as “dead” by multiple doctors? I’m guessing not (as she’s alive, and I wish her good health). The scenarios are not comparable, I’m sorry.</p>
<p>Dead girl is dead. You can make “miraculous” recoveries, but you cannot “wake up” after being dead for weeks.</p>
<p>I have never said my mom’s condition is the same. But no one had answered my question: what if the doctor is wrong? We are just reading the reports.</p>