People hide behind free speech as a way to excuse their actions or to absolve themselves of guilt. The players lied - that in itself is enough to get them thrown off the team or benched for a few games. And if their code says they have to act in a respectful way and they violate that - then that’s it - they violated the code. It’s not a crime, but it is a college offense. Free speech is not a defense.
Agree @wisteria100 but it is not really the provisions of the student-athlete handbook that they violated. It is very general and addresses hazing, good sportsmanship and all that good stuff. It doesn’t really address situations like this. What they appear to have violated is various provisions of Harvard’s Student Handbook which sets the expected standards for the community. When they accept admission they agree to abide by those standards.
While they have apologized and in my view have already paid the price for their poor judgment, I am not certain this will be the end of it. They still may have some accounting to do to other segments of the university. That was made clear in a statement released by the administration.
To the team’s credit, at least publicly they are accepting of their punishment and showing contrition.
I think I can see what Jara123 is driving at. The actions, while vulgar, did not reach the level of harassment for Title IX, but schools have always been given alot of lattitude about controlling speech whether or not it is protected. I’m not sure this situation can be won or lost on 'free speech" or if it really comes into play. To me it’s more likely an athletic code of conduct violations.
@Jara123 Your correct that many people confuse the right to free speech and code of ethical conduct rules. I find the application of these rules to sticky life situations intriguing and worthy of debate.
I was glad to see the students issue a public apology, but as always it seems a little to late.
I have not heard any calls for the coach to step down. To me he is the one charged with ensuring his athletes are behaving in a proper manner. This gets back to my previous post where I expressed a dislike of punishing the whole team for the crimes of a few. Guilty by association has always bothered me.
Now that we have a statement from the woman’s team and the men’s team apologized, it most likely will blow itself out and the headlines will move on.
Great discussion everyone.
@MassDaD68 One of the articles I read, I think it was from the Crimson editorial board, was calling for some sanctions against coaches.
Professional Athletes from Harvard:
Jeremy Lin (NBA)
Allison Feaster (WNBA)
Ted Donato (NHL)
James Blake (Tennis)
Andre Akpan (MLS)
Ryan Fitzpatrick (NFL)
Isaiah Kacyvenski (NFL)
Matt Birk (NFL)
Steve Moore (NHL)
Dominic Moore (NHL)-the Moores are brothers
Michael Fucito (MLS)
Noah Welch (NHL)
Clifton Dawson (NFL)
Craig McDonald (NHL/Europe)
Craig Adams (NHL)
Frank Hermann (MLB)
I have limited my list. There are more. There are also many influential Harvard athletes who have extensive non playing careers.
I would like to think it can be generally agreed that once a student moves from high school to participating in a Division 1 sport it is more than a “hobby” and of very great importance to the individual. No one would spend the time and energy required without that level of importance in one’s life.
Whether or not there is an appropriate punishment for these men’s behavior, I am delighted that a bright light has been lit into this dark corner of character. It is preferable to me that others are free to be their true selves openly, so that we may know whom we’re dealing with.
I’d like to think it can be generally agreed that once a student moves from high school to Harvard, that academics is also of very great importance to the individual. If you are really interested in athletics as your only future there are probably better places to go.
Yes of course there are a handful of out of the thousands of Harvard grads who go on in sports. Also a handful who end up in jail. At least one that became a terrorist.
I think the dynamic of this is interesting. These guys are getting called out for vulgar behavior toward women they know well, who considered them friends, and who they likely will continue to interact with around campus. I think most of the men are mightily embarrassed, as they should be. In this age of Internet anonymity and the ease of exhibiting rude vulgarity toward strangers, it is good to see men have to personally face the women they are demeaning.
Tongue in cheek, but presuming all the women were offended…there are those that place great importance on how men perceive them especially if they are perceived as “hot.” Heaven forbid however, that any women on Harvard’s campus have been secretly rating the men and their “performance” characteristics.
@momofthreeboys : I wonder how much your opinions and your comments on this thread are reflected in your choice of user names. I seriously doubt that momofthreegirls would agree with what you say. And saying something “tongue in cheek” does not make it any more acceptable.
I think an appropriate punishment would be to call in the mothers of the authors of the reports and have them read the reports aloud. Maybe the fathers of the women would like to be there too. If they want them to wear the Scarlett Letter, make it count.
Ok, this thread has officially jumped the shark.
Dunno… I think it is a good idea. I find it appalling that some moms of boys are defending the behavior of these men. These women did NOTHING to ask for this.
I find it appalling that people think free speech should be restricted. Ugly, demeaning speech is still protected speech in our country. Harvard is doing a poor job of pretending to support free speech.
About the same@ in defense of momofthreeboys I am a mom of a boy and a girl and I agree with 100%! So you can be the mother of a girl and still see things from both sides. We moms of boys aren’t bias. I expect my d to be mature enough and self confident enough to never be bothered by such trivial matters. She would never feel harassed, assaulted, or even slightly hurt by some pathetic rating list. My d has more important things to ponder in her free time.
Intparent@ ur correct the ladies did nothing to ask for this. As a matter of fact they didn’t even know about it. So not until this was unearth was it brought to their attention and now it’s harassment? Omg it’s four years later I would hope these young women have better things to do then ponder this nonsense. I’m not sure why this is being given so much press. We are all guilty of making this more than it ever had to be.
No one’s defending the soccer team on this thread. A good conversation about freedom of speech and a conversation about degree of punishment. This thread has jumped the shark or people aren’t reading the entire thread to come to the conclusion that anyone “thinks” what the guys did was OK. Drives me nuts - oh wait there is a thread for that over in the Cafe LOL.