<p>I agree with marite, garland and roshke, and thanks for the background, roshke.</p>
<p>For some reason, it appears Jay Matthews has fallen into a logical flaw common in the social sciences. Because two things occur in sequence does not mean the earlier caused the later. In this case, research has shown that kids who took AP courses in HS do better in college. He concluded that it means AP courses help one to do better! I will leave it to you dear readers to explain the alternative explanation…</p>
<p>This is sad, really, because now someone should look at the impact of doing poorly on the AP exams on college performance etc. I suspect one might find a negative impact? Anyone know what the current research says?</p>
<p>Well, Harvard did a limited study several years ago and concluded that credit should only be given for scores of 5 instead of 4s and 5s as before.</p>
<p>True. but Harvard’s study is hardly representative of the broader AP test taking population, and looked at something a bit different. It looked at how kids in the various AP score buckets did in higher level classes in the same subject area.</p>
<p>I’m thinking of the broader issue, which is what Matthews seems to be basing his whole push on.</p>
<p>IMO, Mathews does realize it, marite. I think his first priority is to worry about getting the programs in place. His hope is that once that is the case, the the quality will follow by virtue of the feedback of the AP test scores. But as garland points out, in order for that to happen, the real changes have to be made at the level of supporting qualified teachers.</p>
<p>Again, what’s so disingenous in this case is to say that this list represents the “Best High Schools” and then go on to say that “Best” can mean different things to different people. He admits to using the rankings as an attention grabbing device and to the use of the word “Best” as promoting his own criterion and goals. </p>
<p>The problem is that many people won’t read beyond the rankings.</p>
<p>Some years ago, our high school principal, in a fit of misguided egalitarianism, abolished the Honors tracks. What was left was 9th and 10th grades heterogeneous classes in which students of wildly varying abilities and preparation (anywhere from 5th grade to collegel-level reading ability) were thrown in together and AP classes. There was nothing in between these two poles. I heard from parents whose kids wanted more challenging classes but not college-level ones that their kids were being pushed willy-nilly into AP classes for lack of Honors classes in those subjects. It was a bad experience for both teachers and students–those who struggled and those who wanted to move faster through the curriculum. Everybody sighed with relief when Honors classes were restored (after the principal quit).</p>
<p>Let’s not forget as well the kids who take APs because of the weighted grades.</p>
<p>“In this case, research has shown that kids who took AP courses in HS do better in college.”</p>
<p>NMD, I just quoted the words of Gaston Caperton in the other AP thread. Despite his possible bias, it seems that the research of TCB indicates that merely taking an AP class does not provide a strong indicator of success in college. WHat is needed is taking the class AND scoring satisfactorily on the AP exam. </p>
<p>Changing gears a bit, this article illustrates that the benefits of the AP program are still being evaluated, and that changes might be forthcoming:</p>
<p>In addition, one should also note the recent announcement of the National Science Foundation’s award of $1.8 million to the College Board to redesign advanced placement courses in biology, chemistry, physics, and environmental science. The award reflects a concern that science and math instruction must be revamped in order to to strengthen America’s global competitiveness.</p>
<p>If I understood NMD correctly, the correlation might not be between the AP course and college performance but between AP-taking student and college performance. It’s a little bit like the argument of value-added education at HYPS vs. at a less selective school.</p>
<p>Maybe in other parts of the country, there is some validity in the rankings. In our state, in the area where we live, his rankings are worthless (or worse). There are two schools listed north of the Golden Gate bridge, and neither school is anything worth writing home about. He leaves out the many tops schools in Marin County, Sonoma County, Mendocino County, etc. etc. In the East Bay, his rankings are pure foolishness (if you live close enough to know which schools are good and which ones are not). His answers to FAQ are a joke. To leave out Private schools ??? Imagine a Ranking of Colleges that left out Stanford, Yale, Harvard, USC, Cal Tech, Harvery Mudd, etc. etc. It would be worthless. Of the schools in Southern California that I am familar with, he had top academic schools listed lower than some very low academic schools. It is about as worthwhile as a list that ranks high schools based on whether the Gymnasium faces east -vs- west, or south -vs- north. Number of AP exams “given” - with no regard to scores is meaningless. Would a Parent or a student choose a high school that gave a very high number of AP exams (and the average score was a “1”) or would they prefer a school that gave a lower number of AP exams (and the average score was a “4”).</p>
<p>Here is one of his ridiculous quotes (an answer to why he doesn’t include scores): “I decided not to count passing rates in the way schools had done in the past because I found that most American high schools kept those rates artificially high by allowing only A students to take the courses. In some other instances, they opened the courses to all but encouraged only the best students to take the tests.”. What a stupid answer.</p>
<p>To summarize what the research has and has not shown:</p>
<ul>
<li> performance on AP exams is predictive (no surprise here) (of grades, graduation success, you name it…)</li>
<li> the mere taking of an AP course is not predictive.</li>
<li>there is much concern in the academy regarding the CONTENT of AP courses: improving the courses to better prepare for subsequent college material.</li>
</ul>
<p>Notice that none of the research separated the student from the course. To support Matthew’s implied hypothesis (maybe it is explicit. I don’t know), that AP courses help a broad range of students, one would need to compare a broad sample of students who took APs to a comparable sample of those that did not. Then you’d probably do subset analysis etc. Take a look at some of the methodology in the Early Admissions Game to get an idea of how to do this stuff properly.</p>
<p>“Yes, indeed! But usually, students with scores of 5 do not repeat the course.”</p>
<p>True, but isn’t the finding of the study relevant because it did control the sample by including students who DID repeat the course?</p>
<p>“And in a not-yet-published study of 465 college students nationwide who had taken both an AP science exam and the corresponding introductory science course …”</p>
<p>Where do kids who self study for APs fit? I’ve read here of kids who buy the review book, study/memorize for two weeks before the test and then take it – and get good grades. How is that a substitute for taking the class in either HS or college? It’s hard to imagine that cramming for two weeks is the same as taking a class for a semester or a year.</p>
<p>Presumably, the kids who self-study do not come into the subject stone cold, eg., never having heard of some biology concept before self-studying for AP-Bio. CTY courses show that it is possible to cover one year’s worth of a subject in three weeks, albeit working intensively.</p>
<p>Well, I regularly teach in a local school district where ANY kid can sign up for AP and either take the official AP test or a free mock test, and I’ve seen this concept transform the district from one that actively pursued mediocrity to one where many many students value excellence. (The district has several schools in the top few hundred of the list.) </p>
<p>I don’t think it matters how poorly a kid does on the official test, in all honesty. The AP curriculum is a demanding broad-spectrum standard and as such is far better than most of the high school courses out there. I think students are better off–longterm–doing poorly in a more-demanding course than well in an easier course. I’m all in favor of academic struggle.</p>