Newsweek's Best High Schools 2010 out today

Parents Forum
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<p>The study mentioned above is at <a href=“http://professionals.collegeboard.com/profdownload/pdf/08-1574_CollegeOutcomes.pdf[/url]”>Higher Education Professionals | College Board. I believe that there is a selection bias problem because those who choose to take AP courses may differ from those who do not, even after controlling for high school GPA and SAT scores. That does not mean that the authors have done anything wrong from a technical standpoint. Indeed, they may have done as much as they could given the data available. </p>

<p>The problem comes in interpreting these results. The authors claim that “results from this study provide strong support for AP Program benefits over non-AP experiences for students and their subsequent college GPA, credits earned, and graduation performance.” This seems unwarranted given the possible selection bias problem.</p>

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<p>Do you have a source for this? Do you have a source for the implied statement that most charter schools *on the Newsweek list *take students by lottery? </p>

<p>I can tell you that not all schools on that list do so. Boston Latin and Brooklyn Tech sure don’t. Neither does the Florida public school I linked to. Neither does the one my D’s friend attended. So, I can say that at least 4 of the schools on the list do have selective admissions. </p>

<p>ps Just checked the requirements for New Explorations, another NYC charter school on the list. You must meet the threshold for gifted & talented to attend. Baccalaureate School for Global Education is limited to Queens residents, requires an entrance exam plus teacher’s and guidance counselor recs, plus copy of prior report card. So that’s 6 charter schools on the list which do NOT take by lottery. </p>

<p>Odyssey Academy in Buffalo does take by lottery.</p>

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<p>^Neither Boston Latin nor Brooklyn Tech is a charter school.</p>

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<p>johnri: </p>

<p>I was making a larger point about charter in general. The source for my statement was “The Death and Life of the Great American School System” by Diane Ravitch (former assistant secretary of education). I think you’re misinterpreting my point. I’m in agreement with your overall premise that schools that can control their enrollment are not the same as schools that cannot. My point is that even a lottery system is a form of controlling one’s enrollment by its’ very nature. In urban centers particularly, the parents who are the most motivated (and likely involved) are the ones who apply to be in the lottery.</p>

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<p>coase:</p>

<p>I agree its possible to jump to too many conclusions with the studies I mentioned because correlation is certainly not the same thing as causation.</p>

<p>Overall, however, what a study like that does is break down some of the gate-keeping that exists at far too many of our high schools. Unfortunately, there are many educators out there who believe that only a select few students should have access to these types of classes. Studies like at least prove that there are more students than they probably think who would benefit from taking rigorous courses like AP.</p>

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<p>Well, my old high school didn’t make it - no wonder! It’s been going down the drain the last few years anyways.</p>

<p>I see that my sister’s high school made it, though.</p>

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<p>I’m glad our local h.s. lets students who want to take an AP class go ahead and try.</p>

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<p>MidwestMom, I have mixed feelings about this. I respect the thinking behind Boston Latin’s relatively restrictive policy, but it does sometimes result in kids being discouraged from taking APs when they might do very well in them. In fact I think this happened to my son, who was steered away from taking any APs in his junior year after he struggled in sophomore year. In his case, his struggles had to do with organizational issues that were going to bite him in any class, regardless of how challenging the material was. Sure enough, this past year he took 3 APs and did just fine in them. In a school with a less restrictive policy he would probably have taken an AP or two in junior year, done just as well as he did in the non-AP classes, and finished with a GPA a couple of tenths of a point higher, which would have opened up more college options. C’est la vie.</p>

<p>On the other hand, I do think it’s irresponsible to let students take as many APs as they want, as early as they want, and let it be their problem if they flounder. I think a certain amount of gatekeeping is appropriate. It’s a fine line. What’s really required to get it right is the kind of sophisticated advising, attuned to the individual student’s abilities, that’s not a practical possibility at most public schools because of staffing limitations. (Sadly, insatiability only gets you so far.)</p>

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<p>An open AP policy has served our high school pretty well – the counselors discourage freshman from taking any APs, but usually a few sign up for them anyway. Also, we have block scheduling, so any prerequisite is linked to the AP class, i.e. Honors Biology must be taken with AP Biology for a full year, two-semester sequence. With only 4 periods in a day, it limits the number of AP classes a student can take in a year. </p>

<p>I’ve never heard of anyone at our school being turned down for an AP class. Students who get in over their head in a class are often given the option to drop down to the regular class part way through the semester. However, the decision is up to the student, rather than the school. It seems to work. Our overall pass rate is in the mid-80s. Sure its not as high as it would be if the school excluded the more middle of the road students, but I think the benefits of letting these kids challenge themselves is worth it.</p>

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<p>Here is an excellent editorial on this subject:</p>

<p>[College</a> Board critics put motives to the test | IndyStar.com | The Indianapolis Star](<a href=“http://www.indystar.com/article/20100623/OPINION04/6230310/1038/OPINION04/College-Board-critics-put-motives-to-the-test]College”>http://www.indystar.com/article/20100623/OPINION04/6230310/1038/OPINION04/College-Board-critics-put-motives-to-the-test)</p>

<p>Ratings are based solely on the percentage of students who took, not passed, the AP exams! No wonder our high school insisted that everyone who took an AP class take the exams! Quite an expense if you don’t foresee needed that Art History college credit because you are majoring in math or engineering in college. And as my husband always suggests, the more heavily advertised anything is, the more profitable it is.</p>

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Actually it’s worse than that. Here’s what it says at the Newsweek site:</p>

<p>“We take the total number of Advanced Placement, International Baccalaureate or Cambridge (AICE) tests given at a school each year and divide by the number of seniors graduating in May or June.”</p>

<p>So the index is not based on the percentage of students who take AP exams–which, while still problematic to my mind, would at least be defensible in terms of the kind of research WISCBadger22 pointed to–but on the average number of AP exams taken per student. A school therefore prospers in the rankings not just by encouraging as many students as possible to take APs, but by encouraging them to take as many APs as possible. I don’t see how this benefits anybody other than CB.</p>

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<p>nighchef & ksm:</p>

<p>Making the list is based on participation, but they do list the percentage of students who passed an AP exam while in high school, which is listed as “E & E” on the Newsweek list (a school’s “Equity and Excellence” rating). That’s the # you might be looking for. It is explained in the FAQs that accompany this list.</p>

<p>Newsweek could come out with a list that ranks schools by the percentage who passed their AP exam, but you know what would happen (what used to happen and still does)? Schools who want to keep this # high would simply only allow their best students to take AP classes or tests. A school could have a 100% passing rate if they only let their top few students take AP classes or tests. </p>

<p>The school I work at used to only allow the best students to take AP and our passing rate was one of the highest in the state. We used to really brag about that, too. Now, we have opened the classes up and our passing rate has gone down a bit. I think we are a far better school, offering more opportunities for more kids, under our current practice. As a parent, that’s the type of school I would want to send my kids to, not one that keeps its’ passing rates artificially high by banning students from classes like AP.</p>

<p>The research strongly backs up that even kids who get a “2” on an AP exam are much more likely to graduate from college than those who never took an AP class. And, yes, there is a proven benefit to taking an AP test. In most subjects, they involve essays, which are great for building students’ communication skills. (Something employers are screaming for.) Remember the old ‘blue book’ tests in college? They are good practice for that. </p>

<p>Also, since the tests are graded independantly by college professors, etc, schools want to know how their students are doing and what improvements can/should be made. How does a school know, if kids don’t take the test? </p>

<p>I can tell you directly though, from the schools end, there is certainly not a financial incentive to have more students take the test. </p>

<p>As far as schools pushing students to take more classes than they are ready to just to be on the list (or higher on the list) that would be and is wrong. Schools under no circumstance should be pushing kids into classes that they are clearly not ready for. I’ve read about schools that force every kid to take an AP course before they graduate. While I think gate-keeping is wrong, that swings the pendulum too far in the other direction, in my opinion.</p>

<p>The tricky thing is that the research shows that there are many more kids who would benefit from AP (nationwide) than we are currently offering it to. How do you decide who is ready? There are test scores, which, as a counselor, I have found to be wildly inaccurate. And there are intangible things such as work ethic and maturity. Most of us have had situations where we didn’t know we could do something until we were pushed to do it. Those are tricky, and indivual waters to navigate.</p>

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Why couldn’t they come up with a list that ranks simply by the percentage of students who took at least one AP exam? To my thinking that would be far superior to what they’re actually doing. It’s one thing to say that students who take at least one AP are better off than students who take none at all; I could buy that, I think. It’s entirely another to say that the more APs students take, the better off they are.</p>

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Yes, it would be and is. So why does Newsweek choose to rank in a way that encourages it?</p>

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<p>nightchef:</p>

<p>I certainly respect your perspective and I wish things were different than they are. Unfortunately, we’re still at the point where, nationally, very few schools can meet the threshold that Newsweek sets up to be on their list. At this point, gate-keeping and old ways of thinking are still very, very widespread and entrenched at the majority of U.S. high schools. Rewarding schools for AP participation is a way to incentivize other school to follow these research-based practices. </p>

<p>There are 27,500+ public high school in the U.S. There are about 1,600 on the list. Let’s say that the way Newsweek organizes this list incentivizes even just a few thousand more schools to open up their AP programs a bit. That literally equates to tens of thousands of students getting an opportunity to take AP classes, which are proven to be beneficial to college-bound kids. </p>

<p>When the list started in 1998, only about 250 schools could meet the ‘Challenge Index’ threshold of 1.00. Twelve years later, there are 1,600 schools and if the list incentivized those 1,350 schools to offer more opportunities to kids, I think those schools, their students and the educational system as a whole benefited.</p>

<p>As far as kids taking multiple classes and exams, I can only speak from my experience and that of our neighboring schools (Chicago, north suburbs). I’ve read about a few schools who require students to take one AP class while in high schools. These were only a few schools in urban areas who were just trying “academic shock treatment”. While I disagree with what those couple of schools are doing, I certainly don’t blame them for trying something different, as we all well-know many of our urban schools need help.</p>

<p>I haven’t heard of ANY school forcing kids to take multiple AP classes for the purposes of making the list or otherwise. At our school, many of the top 25% of the graduating class take multiple AP courses, but certainly no one is forcing them to take these. One of our neighborhing schools has twice the participation we do and they are in a similar boat. Many of their top students take multiple AP courses because they want to (obviously for college). I certainly don’t see anything wrong with allowing a kid who is prepared to take multiple AP courses if they so desire. The other option is having them sit in a class that is below their ability, get an easy “A” and be bored.</p>

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I don’t think it’s a question of forcing. I do disagree with you about gatekeeping–I think it can be overdone or done too rigidly or simplemindedly, but I think that if done intelligently and responsibly it’s a good thing, not a bad thing. </p>

<p>And actually the Texas study you linked to–although I’m hesitant to refer to it given that it seems to have been a CB-sponsored project–contains some hints that gatekeeping might be in order. For instance, Table 37 shows that students with poor mean AP grades do not benefit in college from having taken multiple APs–only the strong performers do. </p>

<p>Beyond that, I can’t find anything in the study on a quick read-through that addresses the question of whether the kids being studied went to schools where there was AP gatekeeping in place or not. If there was, then the study really doesn’t tell us a whole lot–and certainly can’t be used as evidence for open-enrollment AP policies!</p>

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<p>nightchef:</p>

<p>I’m not advocating for “AP for everyone”. Never have. I have seen though, literally dozens and dozens of kids on my caseload at our school who’ve had to jump through a myriad of hoops just to be “allowed” to take an AP class find success, in both the class and on the test. These kids, in situation after situation were doubted by most of the adults around them, yet they wanted to challenge themselves. In 13 years, I’ve literally never had a situation with one of these kids who got less than a “B” or a “3” on the exam. In recent years, we’ve opened the door a bit and the same thing has happened. A few kids on the edge want to try it, they take it and are successful. Now, there’s definitely a limit to that, I agree.</p>

<p>Kids certainly need to be carefully counseled by the adults around them on what AP is all about, how much work they are going to have to do, etc. Some kids will decide they don’t want to take AP after finding all of this out. This isn’t gate-keeping, though, this is informing.</p>

<p>Gate-keeping is not allowing a student to take an AP course because they scored in the 84th%ile on some test and not the 85th. Gate-keeping by definition, is done “rigidly” and “simple-mindedly”. Practices that are cautious and allow parents and students to make up there own mind after they have all the facts aren’t gate-keeping, they’re a best practice. Gate-keeping by it’s very nature, is hard and fast, black and white. Is that what you’re advocating? </p>

<p>The school I’m at has 4,400 students. We have guidlines for every AP and Honors class but if a student wishes to take the course even though they aren’t recommended they (and their parents) can sign a waiver which states that they understand what they are getting into and they are committed to sticking with the class for at least a semester.</p>

<p>Even though we are huge school, we are able to counsel kids in and, yes, out of signing up for AP classes. I personally suggest that students scale back, if I feel it’s too much for them to handle. My school used to gate-keep. Under our previous ‘rules’ it wouldn’t matter what a student, their teacher, parents or I said, if they didn’t meet certain arbitrary standards, they were not allowed to take an AP course. Period. I’ve seen gate-keeping up close and personal and its not good for students. </p>

<p>As far as the U of Texas study, they did not study the openness of the AP programs at the schools, they studied testing results (if students took the class/ test) and college outcomes. HOW the students got into the class wasn’t the point of the study. The study was looking at students who took AP vs. students who didn’t take AP (and whether they passed an AP test or not) and college outcomes. If you want to dismiss the results, go ahead but there hasn’t been anyone in the academic community who has disputed the findings of the study or the independance of the practicioners. The state of Texas has the best tracking system from HS through college and, therefore, several previous AP studies have been done by U of TX.</p>

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No, and I don’t agree with your definition of the term, either. Gatekeeping just means that a kid’s decision to take an AP course requires somebody’s approval. At the university where I work lots of courses are marked “By permission only” in the catalog. That’s gatekeeping. And there’s nothing “hard and fast” or “black and white” about it. It just implies a recognition that a course involves certain challenges and it’s unwise to let someone take that course without an effort to verify that they are properly prepared for those challenges. You prefer a system in which this is ultimately left up to the student. You’re entitled to that opinion, but it’s not reasonable to say that a system in which it’s ultimately left up to the school is inherently rigid or simpleminded.</p>

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But surely you can see that it has crucial implications for the meaningfulness of the results?</p>

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<p>Its just another game to sell magazines. Geez. And its more elitism. </p>

<p>Offering AP courses to kids isnt the answer to education problems. We are top heavy with solutions. The problems are at the bottom of the pool, not the top of the pool.</p>

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<p>My school has the highest SAT scores in NJ ([New</a> Jersey High School SAT Scores - Interactive Graphic - NYTimes.com](<a href=“The New York Times - Breaking News, US News, World News and Videos”>The New York Times - Breaking News, US News, World News and Videos)) but didn’t make the list.</p>

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<p>made the list</p>