<p>Remember the Siemans rep usually deals with students who have taken the math and science tests and according to their own data several years back they showed students getting 5’s on all the math/ science qualifying tests even for some students after 10th grade. (My s had gotten 5’s on all but lacked one of the courses because of scheduling and chose to take university courses rather than completing the last AP science class in 10th grade). Maybe the Siemans rep just had not seen a student do this many over all. Many who did may not have taken the most in Science/math. The students who I knew who had 5’s on over 12 did not do it until 12th grade but it can be done. The college board used to feature students who had taken,if I remember as many as 20 tests and some had only one ‘4’, if I remember correctly back many years.
Who knows what happens to the odds as the number get way up there? At that point kids may take them just for fun. S took a couple without taking the courses and put in a few weeks of review. Not that it would happen for ,say, the Latin Virgil test. Smart kids can knock of Geography, and World History after taking a good Euro class. Often they can do Micro Econ with a bit of work after Macro. Good musicians do not find Music theory too difficult to do etc. As I stated earlier after a bit of science background Env Science is considered easy especially if the student has done well in the other AP science tests. Stats after AP Calc is easy.
An earlier poster suggested though that AP success was about information and effort more than aptitiude. CB studies do a good job of showing the correlations between AP scores and PSAT verbal and math scores. I have tried to do the same analysis. There seems to be a lower limit below which students taking a course like AP physics have little chance of earning a high score on the AP test. It has to do with the abilty to conceptualize and problem solve. The physics test tests a fair number of concepts as does calculus now. Also, because of past criticisms some of the other AP tests are attempting to test higher order thinking skills that seem to correlate to aptitude/ability. The students I have seen breeze through all tests have high SAT or other aptitude measurments. Certainly they must be motivated too.</p>
<p>“Did son #1 get into Stanford?”</p>
<p>dstark: trying to predict if you would win the bet?</p>
<p>does anyone else sort of feel bad for that kid? not only does he have all of that to live up to from now on, but he’ll basically be known as SuperNerd for a long time…it’s one of those accomplishments where everyone praises you to your face but secretly thinks you’re some kind of freak. And it won’t help his popularity with his peers. Obviously I’m not really talking from experience ( I haven’t gotten 13 5s :-D), but I can make a good guess.</p>
<p>Actually, most of these kids are very respected by their peers. By the time they get to that level even being a nerd is often something a student is proud of. Any other kids who have opinions that was worth worrying about are genuinely happy for the student who does something like this.</p>
<p>I don’t feel bad for the kid mentioned in the newspaper article. I feel bad for the reporter who missed some of the background information we are talking about in this thread.</p>
<p>Once he gets into college, no one will know how many APs he aced. It’s not written on his forehead.</p>
<p>“Did son #1 get into Stanford?”</p>
<p>dstark: trying to predict if you would win the bet?"</p>
<p>Just playing around.</p>
<p>"So you don’t think that someone who scored a 5 on BC Calc is more likely than not to score a 5 on Physics C? </p>
<p>He probably is more likely. More likely is only more than 50%. His chances of getting 2 5s still drops unless it is a 100% chance on each test.</p>
<p>Just multiply the chances each time. Just put in your numbers, type them into a calculator and you can see dramatic chances. </p>
<p>“I agree that about the 99% chance not being the same as 100%. So, at what point do the chances lengthen more dramatically? Has it got to do with the number of tests in related fields or is it pure statistics?”</p>
<p>It could be both.</p>
<p>An example, if I have a 90% chance of getting a 5 each time, here are chances of getting all 5s. 90% looks pretty good, but, I do this 13 times and the chances of 13 5s are 25%, not 90%. If you do this long enough your chances are going to be tiny.</p>
<p>.90 X .90. X 90. X.90 X .90…</p>
<p>Or another person…
.99 X.99.X.95X.95x.95 x.95x.95x…95x .95 x80x.60 x .25 x.05</p>
<p>4% chance.</p>
<p>Even though the second person was more likely to score higher on 9 tests, the first person has a better chance to get all 5s.</p>
<p>If a person has a 99% chance 12 times and a 0% chance the 13th, he has no chance, while the other 2 people do have a chance.</p>
<p>Using a calculator helps see how the chances change.</p>
<p>Who is smarter?</p>
<p>A person with a 90% chance to get a five, each time, for 13 times</p>
<p>or a person who has a 100% chance to get a five, each time, for 12 times and the 13th time only a 5% chance to get a 5?</p>
<p>
I would not agree with this statement. There are many valid reasons to question why in the world a kid would attempt this. For example, Will any college he is likely to attend award enough credit or advanced standing for the testing to be worthwhile? How much did all these tests cost? Why is testing such a huge focus in his young, teenage life?</p>
<p>One does not have to be anti-intellectual to wonder about the boy’s motivation or question whether or not he has interests or talents other than studying. Perhaps he does.</p>
<p>SS–I have to disagree with you. If a kid is really very advanced coming into 9th grade, they can easily start taking APs then. Two in 9th grade, two in 10th, maybe 3 or 4 in 11th grade, 4 more senior year…they add up.</p>
<p>Assuming your school offers them, why not take them? And if you keep up with the work all year, it’s not a matter of “studying” for these tests. </p>
<p>I didn’t encourage my son to take 11 APs. (I said 12 before–I think it was actually 11.) The guidance counselor & I learned to stay out of his way and let him learn what he wanted to learn. He did ask me to help him prepare for the Music Theory AP test, which was only offered at another school. He got a 5 on that one too…</p>
<p>He had enough college credits–he could have graduated a year or more early if he were a liberal arts major. Unfortunately, there aren’t that many Computer Science-related APs. (Not that he wanted to shorten his time at U of Illinois–he is having the time of his life!)</p>
<p>His college started sending out “preparing for graduation” letters the end of his freshman year! We just ignored them, and the offers for fancy diploma frames from another company.</p>
<p>SS: Often these kids are high achievers in many things. They not only do the AP’s but are athletes, performing artists, and involved in community service. The kids take the courses because they want the challenge and are ready to do so. (It may be easier for them than getting to a college to take classes) It is no defferent than an athlete who plays sports at a young age or young pianist who plays concertos. Nor does doing one thing mean the student cannot enjoy the other aspects of being a teenager.
Interestingly enough our district chooses graduation speakers a bit different than many places. The top 5-10% of students are put on a ballot and then the senior class votes. I am not going to get into whether or not this is bad or good. What is amazing is that students who have had perfect SAT/ACT and a gazillion AP’s, and some who are quite “nerdy” have been voted to be speaker. And this in a very economic and academically diverse public school. They were also voted on to student council. They had active social lives and were pretty “cool” kids too. They just happend to be academically accelerated.</p>
<p>SS: As for the tests, yes they are pricey, not near as pricey as a private high school, and a lot cheaper than the costs of a traveling soccer team. The tests are there to have some sort of way to measure learning. If one want sto advance to the next level ,say to take a college course while in high school, the test can be used to verify readiness. If the student had taken Calculus at the local college rather than as AP, the tuiton costs would exceed an AP test cost. As far as college credit, I have had students get 60 semester hours of credit for AP scores and start as juniors at places like Tulane or state schools.</p>
<p>well yeah the kids who are Mr. & Mrs. everything can be nerdy and popular too because they do everything at once, but I’m thinking of the kids who are primarily known as being academic achievers and not much else. and this kid doesn’t seem like a Mr. Everything. It’s easy to say “smart is cool” when you’re an adult and you’re past high school, but it may not seem that way when you’re a 17-year-old among other 17-year-olds. At least when he goes to college he’ll meet his “people”, but socially things probably haven’t been that easy for him so far as a high-achieving kid. </p>
<p>and I also feel bad for him because if he goes to a top tier private school those tests that his parents spent hundreds or into the thousands of dollars on probably won’t count for much.</p>
<p>EDIT: sorry, I’m really not trying to make a big deal out of this, but just as a kid who’s always been seen as nerdy or really smart I cringed when I saw the headline and felt the need to respond from the perspective of a kid his age.</p>
<p>I know that APs have value & often provide the only challenge in mediocre school districts. What I found inaccurate about the statement was the attitude… “Any other kids who have opinions worth worrying about…” As if any questioning the wisdom or rationale of loading up on APs could only be done by an unsophisticated cretin with worthless opinions. In my experience, the kids who ship lunch to take on additional APs in search of Val/Sal status are not universally admired by their academic peers. Kids know who is truly brilliant, and that is not always the kid with the greatest # of APs. Although the Holmdel boy seems to be the real deal, as his teachers are raving.</p>
<p>Maybe he doesn’t care about meeting “his people” in high school. Do not assume because he isn’t “typical” that he is unhappy. I have been straightened out on that by a number of kids. Also $1200 on 15 tests is a drop in the bucket compared to college expenses. It could equal less than one years of texts. It is also miniscule compared to what kids spend on clothes or tech toys etc.(and car insurance) I sense in his case there is more upside than downside. I am excited for him.</p>
<p>I agree, peindre. Adults are often much quicker to cut kids a break. But let’s be honest & realize that often the type of kid motivated to beat the AP record is not usually the most social type. Some kids learn to tone down their “in your face” academic dominance & have much more successful social interactions by doing so. It’s analogous to benching the first string athletes & bringing in 2nd stringers. After a while, it’s not necessary to score more points. </p>
<p>I’m just throwing out the idea that an excessive # of APs can be interpreted in different ways, not all good.</p>
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<p>As the parent of a kid who was not happy unless he was challenged, I disagree with the assumption that the goal here is “to score more points.” Maybe it’s just to be happy. There are different ways of being happy.
Unless we have information that the kid is maladjusted, we have to assume that he is content with what he does. There are plenty of ways kids can sabotage their parents’ ambitious plans for them. </p>
<p>My S always knew he wanted to spend all four years in college, so getting credits for Advanced Standing was not an issue. He took the tests as a validation of what he had learned and also for placement into more advanced classes. He attended a public school so the amount we paid for his APs and the tuition we paid for his college classes over three years were a minuscule amount compared to what we would have paid in a year at a private school.</p>
<p>From the article: “Besides excelling in math and science, Lin said he enjoys painting and drawing as a hobby.” </p>
<p>And SS, who said anything about skipping lunch to take more APs?</p>
<p>SS: Often brilliant slackers seem to be popular in high schools. Those who take AP’s or spend hours practicing violin or even some who spend hours on end training for the U.S Ski team can be resented or have students question their motives. The kids are driven and motivated to succeed. Some people may see that as a negative. Maybe winning the Intel or Siemans or making the US Math team is a status thing too. Perhaps it is the same as having a nice house, or car or being a star quarterback or running for a goverment position. I still think it is cool and admire his feat especially because I could never have done it.</p>
<p>Why is it when a kid wants to go out and be the youngest person ever to swim from Alcatraz to the mainland that is admirable but when a kid wants to take a lot of AP tests and earn 5’s it is somehow construed as a negative thing.</p>