No American Rhodes Winners from UChicago Undergrad for 7th Consecutive Year

Colleges & Universities University of Chicago
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“one of my friend’s very accomplished daughters, the editor in chief of a prominent periodical publication, confided to me after her father’s service that though he had never indicated disappointment in her decision not to go to his old school, she herself had come to think that she made a mistake. Perhaps, she said, he ought to have insisted on it - like all the Harvard alums do.”

  • As I think I've mentioned before, we overheard a kid at the April Overnight waxing enthusiastic about UChicago only to be shut down by a parent who preferred Yale. It reminded me of the Onion's "Cold Businessman Father" periodical and yearly release of the "You WILL go to Yale" issue.

Anyone wishing to understand how bad some of these alumnae parents are is welcome to read the novel ‘Early Decisions’ - it’s based on the author’s real-life experience as a private college admissions consultant based in (the city of) Chicago. https://www.amazon.com/Early-Decision-Novel-Lacy-Crawford/dp/0062240692

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Calling a school the this-Ivy or the that-Ivy when it isn’t an actual member of the historic league is just a pathetic attempt to appropriate the imagined glamor and prestige of a name. For the brand-obsessed among us (naming no names) that might have an appeal. However, it’s simply theft: it ain’t true, ain’t dignified, and ain’t going to happen.

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So @marlowe1 - this is less about appropriating the prestige and glamor of the brand (although that’s not bad), and more about finding the best quick summary of a school in a twitter-obsessed culture.

I’ve said many times before, if you can find a better 2 word descriptor for Chicago than academic ivy, present it here.

When people (prospective students) ask for the quick summary of the school, that’s the best I can give. Haven’t found anything better yet

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@Cue7

The No Trigger Warnings letter to the incoming Class of 2020 was from the College’s administration. Faculty was absolutely free to disagree with it - that’s what “free expression” is all about :smile:

So - how does “No Trigger Warnings” fit in your theory of “ivyfication?” You seem to imply that it’s an outlier action.

From your posts, it appears that distinctions are ranked pretty much equally. So “great ski team” = “statement on free expression.” Perhaps you are saying that these are all just ways to have a “niche”?

What you haven’t done yet (though perhaps I’ve missed it?) is explain how a university’s sense of purpose might be driving its leadership decisions. Nor have you walked us through how UChicago’s need for more funds to maintain its position as a great university means that it has “ivyfied.” Sorry, but you will need to be “that kid” in Hum/Sosc and expand upon this a bit for the benefit of the rest of us who have obviously skipped the readings.

Here’s the starter question: what exactly is your distinction between “Great University” and “Ivy?”

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I think it’s pretty clear what distinction Cue7 sees between “Great University” and “Ivy.” No reasonable person would dispute that Michigan, Berkeley, and Caltech all qualify as “Great Universities,” but none of them is going to look like an “Ivy” to Cue7. Michigan and Berkeley because they are too large, too sink-or-swim-y, because not every student there is practically perfect in every way, and because the middle 50% of each graduating class has a wider range of outcomes than you might see at an “Ivy.” Caltech because there are not enough amenities, there is too exclusively an academic focus, and not a broad enough menu of things to study.

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As a devoted reader of Cue7 I state my belief that he would deny to Michigan, Berkeley, Caltech and many another fine institution the top rung of greatness. He reserves that lofty pinnacle for the small group of private research universities occupying the USNews Top (more-or-less) 20. Have I parsed you rightly, o mighty seer!

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^ but didn’t @Cue7 agree that MIT is the Stem-Ivy? How do Cal-Tech and MIT differ from one another?

While a top state uni as a whole might not be “Ivy”, surely its honors college would be, at least in terms of academic and residential experience. The stats show that a large majority of first years live on campus at State U even given the option to commute. I’ll bet the percentages are even higher and of longer duration in the honors college. As for athletics, there’s no question that the state unis are comparable.

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Non grad perspective.

My general opinion is that a great brand can coexist with another.

Chicago has a definite brand in my New England enclave. It’s generally seen as a place for brilliant students, hard work and cold winters.

It tends to be viewed as less catering to the creature comforts and sensitivities of the students. Not blind to their needs but not a country club atmosphere. Although not any issue with facilities. More a seriousness about it all.

My catch phrase would be the “undergrad grad school”.

I wouldn’t compete with the Ivy League brand. For the right person and situation it is a superior option. And it can be seen that way to employers as well. It depends. I would stick to being unique. Caltech and MIT could care less. You should too.

As for Rhodes winners, it ebbs and flows. I’m sure it’s doing fine in phds med schools and financial firm or mba placements. That’s the real job anyway.

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@privatebanker “undergrad grad school” doesn’t capture chicago today. It certainly used to, but grad school implies a place where (generally) there is a lack of job advising/general counseling, and few amenities surrounding student life. Chicago used to be like that, but certainly not any more.

@JBStillFlying - @JHS hit it on the head. Berkeley, Michigan, UNC, Wisconsin, UVa, etc are all great universities. In north america, so are Toronto and Mcgill, for sure.

I would not count any of those schools as having the ivy model, and, in thinking about it more, the same goes for MIT or Caltech (the ivy model does encourage some focus on liberal arts).

Those universities are clearly great - but their structure and goals are quite different than the ivy schools.

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No I wasn’t talking about resources. like on campus recruiting and career counseling. Of course that’s available at a 70k a year private university of this stature. That’s a given.

It’s the Culture that it holds as a brand imho and among the students looking to attend. Also the parents and senior executives I work with day to day.

I never attended. This is a brand level conversation vis a vis the ivy league schools.

Chicago seems to approach academics and the work load in a serious and mature manner. More so than any ivy save Princeton Wharton within penn Cornell engineering and Harvard’s most academically minded students.

It is also known as an Econ global powerhouse and the graduate schools are also considered the same. Mba and med school are an equivalent brand to nearly all the ivies.

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But @privatebanker - the amenities and counseling were absolutely NOT givens until fairly recently for chicago. And they are not givens for many Unis that are very expensive.

Further, part of grad school is generally that spartan kind of existence that has eroded at chicago. I believe the residential life and community is much, much better now, in ways that starkly contrast most grad schools.

I’m happy to classify chicago as academic, but the feel that I’ve heard described does not at all seem to be a grad school type existence at the undergrad level.

(Note, this certainly described the school well when I was there, but they’ve changed a lot.)

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^ @cue7 - UChicago has always been heavily focused on the liberal arts, so in that sense has been “ivy-fied” from the beginning :slight_smile: Of course, it was also founded on and offered a different model to education from the ivies in those days.

Cal Tech and MIT might attract mostly engineers and applied science and math majors, but it is possible to major in a number of social sciences and even the humanities. Clearly they don’t have the scope of the two fields that a UChicago or HYP would have. But they do exist and I’m guessing that they would inform the program of Gen. Eds.

Furthermore, it appears that Cornell graduates about 75% of its class in STEM, business and ag. Not sure that really qualifies as even “some” focus on the liberal arts. Where’s the ivy model there and, if it exists, how could it then NOT exist with MIT and Cal Tech?

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’ “undergrad grad school” doesn’t capture chicago today. It certainly used to, but grad school implies a place where (generally) there is a lack of job advising/general counseling, and few amenities surrounding student life. Chicago used to be like that, but certainly not any more.’

This is incorrect on a couple of fronts. First of all, grad programs do, indeed, have job advising now, even in PhD programs. Clearly graduate professional schools everywhere should (and certainly the top ones do) have career placement offices. Second, UChicago’s undergraduate program remains a place for serious students who are focused on their academic work. It’s a great place to attend undergrad if you are hoping to do graduate work later on because other academic communities understand the kind of academic preparation the College students receive. The “undergrad grad school” still seems appropriate - and more accurate than “Academic Ivy.”

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@JBStillFlying - to be clear, I was referring to grad school as PHD programs - not professional schools (which, while technically graduate schools, really differ from the pathways offering phds).

And, for phd programs - i don’t know of many at all that offer expansive counseling/career services, and offer resource-intensive supports for their students. They may be getting better, but are probably still fairly spartan.

And, in the past, I would classify life at Chicago undergrad as fairly spartan - like their grad school counterparts. Certainly, no more.

Educating a chicago undergrad is now resource intensive from the academic and student life fronts- akin to the ivy model, in ways grad schools are not.

“Undergrad grad school” is a relic of a past age. Or, if we wanted to be more accurate, we could say “used to be undergrad grad school, but now transitioned to a happier and more lucrative model.”

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“Further, part of grad school is generally that spartan kind of existence that has eroded at chicago. I believe the residential life and community is much, much better now, in ways that starkly contrast most grad schools.”

  • This has changed a lot at grad schools, even PhD programs. Both grad and undergrad students are a lot richer than they used to be. Canada Goose isn't just being worn by undergraduates in HP. Will agree, however, that residential life for grad students is far more independent in general than undergraduate. UChicago used to have its college dorms flung far and wide around Hyde Park and/or located in various four-story walkups. Very much a "grad school feel." That exists no more. However, even today the school is known to have a large number of the student body living off campus (the reason the housing has been tight the past couple of years is simply due to increased class sized w/o a corresponding increase in available housing). It's not clear that keeping everyone in the dorm for an additional year will actually improve the community. Some houses/dorms just aren't as cohesive as others. I'd think the high rises with their larger houses have a particularly difficult challenge compared to Snitch or BJ. So, despite the efforts to form a tight residential community, jury's still out. Perhaps at worst it'll be as cohesive as a grad school high rise. Not the same as the residential communities at some of the Ivies, but not so bad either.

Honestly, the residential question and how they’ve chosen to address it even today should be the biggest tip off that UChicago isn’t the same as the Ivies. The thinking simply isn’t the same. All the best resources go to support the academic side.

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@cue7 - I’ve finally caught up with your comments!

“And, for phd programs - i don’t know of many at all that offer expansive counseling/career services, and offer resource-intensive supports for their students. They may be getting better, but are probably still fairly spartan.”

-They do. Most is going to be specific by department. But I know that, for instance, at UChicago they do have career support for the PhD students; advice on thesis preparation, etc. Don’t know much about it, however.

“And, in the past, I would classify life at Chicago undergrad as fairly spartan - like their grad school counterparts. Certainly, no more.”

  • I'd say at UChicago specifically, they pay a lot more attention both to undergrad and PhD these days.

“Educating a chicago undergrad is now resource intensive from the academic and student life fronts- akin to the ivy model, in ways grad schools are not.”

  • Haven't done this, but if I added up the number of PhD students at UChicago I'd probably get something in the range of 6,000 or so. Maybe that's high so perhaps 5,000? Anyway, all are fully funded and none are charged tuition. So they are resource-intensive as well. The undergraduate program, on the other hand, is a source of revenues. THAT's why they've improved it at UChicago. They've done enough to generate the revenues they needed to. Cue - it's all about the money.

I think you have grad students pegged wrong. The PhD grad students I’ve met in the past several years seem pretty happy. Maybe it depends on the course of study. I’ve no doubt that UChicago college kids are happier than they were. A lot of that is due to better practices put in place. And a lot of that is due to selecting better-fit admits.

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Does anyone else find these " Ivy" monickers a bit too wannabe? parvenu? second rate? trying too hard? copycat-ish?

It kinda rubs me the wrong way.

I am fine if UChicago’s peers start calling it an Ivy (or Ivy Plus). Or if the press starts calling it the Academic Ivy. Or if there is a groundswell of ordinary people thinking its an Ivy (like they do with MIT)

But having UChicago stakeholders pushing this faux Ivy designation is kinda off putting, to me.

Maybe its just me. Maybe there really is a need to twitterize the value of UChicago in a word or two. But I really don’t see the value of it.

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@JBStillFlying - I really think there is increasing divergence- not convergence - between chicago undergrad and grad school life. As an example:

https://www.chicagomaroon.com/article/2019/4/20/committee-grad-education-report-shows-increasing-d/

Chicago’s grad students are increasingly dissatisfied with grad school life at Chicago. The undergrads, on the other hand, are probably more satisfied than their prior cohorts.

And, yes, it absolutely comes down to revenue, and guess what college model is great at generating revenue (and future donations)? The ivy model! That’s why chicago adopted it.

Also re res life, if it was in a different area or had more money, I think it would’ve opted for fewer high rise dorms. But, like ivies not quite as wealthy as the big three (like penn), chicago is doing what it can.

A true non-ivy move would’ve been to keep the old system and have chicago keep a more “far-flung/scattered” approach to housing. I also don’t know if their approach is great. They have spent probably close to $500M over the past 10 years - clearly looking to ivies as comparators, and I don’t know if this will pay off. Commitment to residential life is a fairly uniform trait at all the ivies (even the urban ones), but I think this is where Chicago could have saved money.

Instead, I’d have liked more committment to increasing the social spaces where students can mix/hang out. For $100-200M, maybe expand the student union or create reasons for houses/students to socialize.

The huge investment in artificially manufacturing on campus residential life? Not sure it was a good move, but def in agreement w the ivy model.

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I’m going to give you some very sincere praise, Cue (you better take it, you might not get more from me for a long time): You endure mockery, court absurdity, take on all-comers - and do not flinch from the logic of your argument. One wishes it were a better argument, but never mind.

There is something unrepentantly UChicagoish in you that you cannot completely eradicate and reminds me not at all of ivy-leaguism.

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@Cue7 the ivies weren’t the only institutions to adopt the revenue model early on. Next you are going to say that having a strong alum network or large endowment is following ‘the ivy model’. That might leave out poor Cornell (again!) because its endowment is a billion less than UChicago (despite the school being more than twice the size). And Brown’s endowment is pretty “meh” relative to UChicago (both in absolute size and when normalized by student population).

I’m willing to agree that UChicago has targeted certain ivies as the gold standard and attempting to match or surpass on key metrics. But there are clearly others it simply isn’t worrying about.

UChicago expanded the size of the college and adopted the revenue model for one reason and one reason only: survival as a great research university. @JHS is correct that what they were doing simply wasn’t working, so they needed to change direction. Again, this decision was primarily about finances. Nothing is more “un-ivy” than the significant debate about the size and curriculum of the College back in your day. To think that they are uncritically embracing “ivyness” now is to assume that in 20 years’ time the entire university culture has done a 180. The staunch refusal to embrace Boyer’s “semester system” plan alone should tell you that this is simply not the case.

Grad students: There is no doubt that undergraduate experience has improved more rapidly (because there was much more there to improve). Grad school (PhD) experience at UChicago has, indeed, improved historically but not relative to peers with more money. That’s why teaching loads are high at UChicago. Furthermore, the quality of grad student is lower than at peers. This is a simple issue of money: peers with more of it can recruit higher-quality candidates who get a lighter teaching load and finish in less time. The provost has proposed an easy fix, as you know, by capping admission to certain grad programs. BTW, econ doesn’t have a high teaching load today nor did it 30+ years ago, so it really does vary by department/school.

Res life: UChicago undoubtedly is more “ivy-like” in realizing their long-term dream of better integrating the undergraduate residential experience into academic life. Not sure they had a choice in this matter; this is what families want so in order to attract the best students, they had to provide housing that was at least relatively comparable to peers. Res. life has taken a back seat to academics at UChicago throughout most of its history due to finances and a very “un-ivy” mindset. But there have always been advocates for an integrated system, and Boyer himself has been pushing the issue for years. While Boyer has provided plenty of evidence that he’s all for “ivyfication,” I think this issue - and the back and forth on it - is in reality much older than I am (let alone you). Remember, there were plans to build a residential college system modeled on Yale back in the early decades of the university. Wasn’t BJ the start of that project? Too bad they didn’t complete it.

And because you have provided similarities with the “ivy model”, here are some notable distinctions:

Cornells new plan doesn’t resemble UChicago’s in the least, although they will also be requiring first two years on campus.
https://www.ithacajournal.com/story/news/2018/07/25/planning-board-moves-forward-cornell-dorm-plans/833927002/

Brown’s res hall communities are 50-60 in size, compared to 100 at UChicago in the newer halls (which will very soon be a majority of beds). House size has actually INCREASED with the new dorms. They were much closer to the “ivy model” in this aspect when dorms were flung all over Hyde Park.

Penn, the “comparable” high-rise res system (because both schools are in the middle of a huge urban area) has 58% of undergrads current living on campus. UChicago will be lucky to get to that percentage for the Class of '23 and beyond. In reality, rents in the surrounding area have a lot more to do with this issue than anything else.

Finally - and importantly - the vast majority of ivies have special housing reserved for first years, with students moving on to upper division housing (or off campus) in subsequent years. UChicago’s house system is more a very poor imitation of the Yale res. college system noted above.

UChicago’s focus on singles also reminds me of a graduate student housing system. Its newer, more sterile high rise-style dorms remind me of other large urban universities more than a traditional ivy. In fact, the last thing I think of when looking at their new housing plans is “ivy.” To me it just looks like more “UChicago.”

Student union/social spaces: Does UChicago even have a student union??? They do seem to be expanding their mental health and counseling facilities. Given the number of highly stressed first years this year, it’s probably a good thing. Not sure where you dormed but BJ has a variety of inter-house events. Most recently was their Halloween party. There’s also Scav which is very popular depending on which res hall you live in. If these things aren’t happening in the other dorms, that might have more to do with the fact that they blew up many long-standing houses in creating the new space. Again, very UChicago and not very “ivy.”