No more Christmas trees at UNC-Chapel Hill. So you know.

Parent Cafe
101

<p>“Wrong application. The subject was about a Christmas tree, which as stated many times in this thread, is not in any way religious. It has nothing to with seperation of church and state.”</p>

<p>You can state that all you want, but the reality is that a Christmas tree is in fact a symbol of a holiday that has profound religious importance. To attempt to argue to the contrary is sophomoric. It would seem self-evident that if that were not the case it would not be called a “Christmas tree”. Regardless of the ancient roots of the tree tradition, universally, around the world, it is an aspect of the celebration of the Christmas holiday that has evolved over the centuries. Tell me, when you go out to buy this “non-christmas tree”, do the signs at the vendor say “Trees with Pine Needles for Sale”?</p>

<p>“Why do you think it’s insensitive to say “Happy New Year” to a stranger you meet on Rosh Hashana? Maybe you genuinely want them to be happy during the 365 days that follow Rosh Hashana. Why shouldn’t a Jew wish happiness upon a gentile during a Jewish holiday?”</p>

<p>Because Rosh Hashana is not a secular New Year’s celebration. It is also a holiday that has profound religious significance. It marks the beginning of the period of time from Rosh Hashana to Yom Kippur when Jews reflect about their lives over the past year, take stock of how they have lived in accordance with the strictures, principles and values of Judaism and prepare to fast and seek forgiveness for any transgressions on Yom Kippur. If one is observant, it is the period during which God determines how one is to be written in the Book of Life for the next year. So, if I am wishing someone a Happy New Year within the context of Rosh Hashana, inherent in the good wishes is the recognition of the religious significance of the holiday, the process of observance which it entails and the inherent tidings that one will successfully engage in the religiously mandated period of self reflection that the holiday commands, will be forgiven by God for their transgressions and be written well in the Book of Life. For a non-Jew who really understands what the holiday is about, wouldn’t it really be like me saying “Repent Non-Believer, and you better do it within the next 10 days before God decides to write you off the face of the earth”. That’s why it would be presumptuous of me.</p>

<p>“That a religious display might violate the Establishment Clause is a legitimate argument against them, imo. But to complain that a near-universal secular cultural tradition must be abolished because some people might have their feelings hurt over it, or feel inferior or left out because of it, seems over-sensitive to the extreme.”</p>

<p>A “near universal secular tradition”? Really, then I guess the multitude of religious minorities who do not engage in this “tradition” are not included in your census? A “secular tradition”, I guess for the crass marketing firms and retailers that have tried to make it such (which if I were a Christian I would find offensive). And by the way, what do you call the star put at the top of many Christmas trees, you know the one that symbolizes the star that guided the 3 wise men to Jesus’ manger, a lesson in celestial navigation? Or the angels often found at the top of the trees, an action figure from an unreleased Harry Potter story? And no one is talking about abolishing this tradition, just that it should not be practiced in a manner or at a location that takes on the imprimatur of public agency or government sanctioning and support. I’m all for big wonderful displays celebrating the seasonal religious holidays and for one’s devotion to one’s religion, as long as it is on private property (not dedicated to public or quasi public use, such as malls), in houses of worship, in homes and not paid for by my tax dollars, regardless of the religion and holiday at issue.</p>

102

<p>I really don’t want to get into this argument as nothing will be settled and no minds will be changed.</p>

<p>I would like to muse on people howling about the “non-religious” symbol of the Christmas tree being taken down from public places. They insist it’s not religious, but it’s a “Christmas” tree. </p>

<p>It’s a patently religious holiday. Not a patriotic or secular one. </p>

<p>You’d probably find more people stating that they don’t celebrate Christmas than stating they “don’t celebrate” the 4th of July.</p>

103

<p>It is a national holiday. I don’t understand why, if the federal government has decided that this particular day is significant enough to merit a day off for all of its employees, regardless of religion, so many people get so offended by its being applied to all citizens.</p>

104

<p>“It is a national holiday. I don’t understand why, if the federal government has decided that this particular day is significant enough to merit a day off for all of its employees, regardless of religion, so many people get so offended by its being applied to all citizens.”</p>

<p>One could argue that it is an aberration from the doctrine of Separation of Church and State and the mandates of the Establishment Clause. Or one could take a pragmatic view that it was realized that on the holiday so many employees would be absent that government institutions would not be able to function and therefore it made good sense to close. To ascribe it to a “National Holiday” as though that somehow legitimizes the sanctioning of a national religious observance and thereby legitimizes a government display of objects with significance to a particular religious holiday celebration is without foundation or merit. It is also a very slippery slope. A few years back, I had a hearing scheduled on Passover which conflicted with traveling for a large family seder. I asked the presiding local judge for a continuance and explained why. The response was “Our offices are open on holidays, we can’t delay the case and the request is denied.” I then inquired whether we could move the case up to a particular Friday just prior to Passover in an effort to demonstrate to the court that I was willing to take an earlier date and thereby not delay the case. The response was “Oh, no, that is Good Friday and our offices are closed.” I guess that was a universal holiday too.</p>

<p>That’s what minority religions face, whether due to insensitivity or outright bigotry. That’s why as a country we need to be ever vigilant to act with fidelity to the fundamental constitutional precepts of the doctrines of Separation of Church and State and the Establishment Clause.</p>

105

<p>“It is a national holiday. I don’t understand why, if the federal government has decided that this particular day is significant enough to merit a day off for all of its employees, regardless of religion, so many people get so offended by its being applied to all citizens.”</p>

<p>One could argue that it is an aberration from the doctrine of Separation of Church and State and the mandates of the Establishment Clause. Or one could take a pragmatic view that it was realized that on the holiday so many employees would be absent that government institutions would not be able to function and therefore it made good sense to close. To ascribe it to a “National Holiday” as though that somehow legitimizes the sanctioning of a national religious observance and thereby legitimizes a government display of objects with significance to a particular religious holiday celebration is without foundation or merit. It is also a very slippery slope. A few years back, I had a hearing scheduled on Passover which conflicted with traveling for a large family seder. I asked the presiding local judge for a continuance and explained why. The response was “Our offices are open on religious holidays, we can’t delay the case and the request is denied.” I then inquired whether we could move the case up to a particular Friday just prior to Passover in an effort to demonstrate to the court that I was willing to take an earlier date and thereby not delay the case. The response was “Oh, no, that is Good Friday and our offices are closed.” I guess that was a universal holiday too.</p>

<p>That’s what minority religions face, whether due to insensitivity or outright bigotry. That’s why as a country we need to be ever vigilant to act with fidelity to the fundamental constitutional precepts of the doctrines of Separation of Church and State and the Establishment Clause.</p>

106

<p>“I’m all for big wonderful displays celebrating the seasonal religious holidays and for one’s devotion to one’s religion, as long as it is on private property (not dedicated to public or quasi public use, such as malls), in houses of worship, in homes and not paid for by my tax dollars, regardless of the religion and holiday at issue.”</p>

<p>I can’t articulate it, but there’s a difference to me whether it’s a state-funded situation or a mall / store, which is presumably privately owned, though open to all comers.</p>

107

<p>"I would like to muse on people howling about the “non-religious” symbol of the Christmas tree being taken down from public places. They insist it’s not religious, but it’s a “Christmas” tree. "</p>

<p>The people who howl most loudly about the war on Christmas don’t see it as a war on a secular cultural tradition, but as a war on CHRISTIANS, belief in Jesus, and so forth. They don’t see it as prejudice against people who like decorated trees; they see it as prejudice against CHRISTIANS explicitly.</p>

108

<p>Pizzagirl, I included malls because in many respects malls have become the town squares of today where people gather, socialize, have activities (such as early morning exercise/walking programs). There a lot that goes on which is not shopping per se (which is supported by mall owners to hopefully promote shopping). Moreover, most malls were built or operate with public agency development grant money, funding, tax abatements etc. And what I’m talking about are the public areas of the mall as opposed to the inside of the individual stores. The issues are, though, more grey when it comes to malls but the insensitivity often is not.</p>

109

<p>Look, the Christmas tree is in a gray area, which is what makes this so difficult. It is a non-religious symbol related to an important religious holiday. In this country, that religious holiday has substantial secular elements which are widely (but not universally) celebrated, including by people who aren’t religious. Compare it to Thanksgiving, which is also essentially a religious holiday, although it is less sectarian and even more secularized than Christmas. Have you ever heard anybody complaining about “Happy Thanksgiving” or about a picture of a turkey in a Pilgrim hat? On the other hand, Easter is not as secularized as Christmas, so there is less of an effort to put Easter decorations up in public places.</p>

110

<p>MichaelNKat, I can understand your complaint with the judge and court, and completely agree with you on that issue. But now you’re talking about restricting the mall common areas from displaying Christmas stuff because they use public agency development grant money? Are you serious? </p>

<p>So what now, should anyone who lives in public housing be restricted from putting up Christmas trees? If you receive welfare, should you be prohibited from using that money to buy Christmas decorations? If your mortgage is federally subsidized, you shouldn’t be allowed to display Christmas lights? </p>

<p>After all, someone might pass by your federally subsidized house and be offended. Oh the humanity!</p>

111

<p>Hunt: I think there’s a difference between the religious celebration of Easter (Christ’s rise, the rolling back of the stone…etc.) and chocolate, eggs, and big-eared bunnies in a mall for photo ops. All our local malls have a ‘take a picture with the Bunny’ sites which are rapidly approaching Santa-sized elaboration. Christ on (or off) a Cross…not so much. I think Easter is past that tipping point where the secularization exceeds the religiosity.</p>

112

<p>“For a non-Jew who really understands what the holiday is about, wouldn’t it really be like me saying “Repent Non-Believer, and you better do it within the next 10 days before God decides to write you off the face of the earth”. That’s why it would be presumptuous of me.”</p>

<p>No, it wouldn’t be like saying that. Especially since even for observant Jews, Gentiles don’t have any obligation to follow Jewish law about repenting. Double especially because Jews saying “Happy New Year” to one another aren’t warning each other about the possible consequences of God’s anger. Where did you get this idea? When I say “Happy New Year,” to Jews or non-Jews, it means that I want the listener’s next year to be happy.</p>

<p>Pizzagirl, the only reason it would be weird to say “Happy New Year” to non-Jews on Rosh Hashana is that they would be confused by an apparent non-sequitur. If I lived among non-Jews who were literate in Jewish culture (like on the Upper West Side), I might well greet my Gentile neighbors that way on Rosh Hashana. I’ve been told “Happy New Year” by Chinese people on the Chinese new year, too.</p>

113

<p>

</p>

<p>Yes, Christmas trees are indeed a symbol of the holiday season in which Christmas is celebrated. So are decorative lights, mistletoe, snowflakes, candy canes, chestnuts roasting over an open fire, and flying reindeer. Since when does proximity alone prove association? Show me your evidence of how churches use Christmas trees to promote worship and the spread of religious faith.</p>

114

<p>As FLVADAD says, there are plenty of symbols associated with Christmas, that have nothing to do with religion. The malls around here do not refer to their trees as “Christmas trees,” rather they have holiday tree-lighting ceremonies. Because some people erroneously believe an evergreen tree is a Christian symbol does not make it so. (Are all chocolate candy gold coins representative of Judaism?) If it does, then Stanford better not roll out its mascot in the month of December, or it might risk losing its federal funding.</p>

115

<p>Bay, if the thing symbolizes Christmas it by definition has something to do with religion!</p>

<p>Look, a Snowman or a snowflake symbolizes winter and has nothing to do with a religion. A “Christmas” tree symbolizes a specific religious holiday in our culture, and therefore it is with a doubt associated with religion.</p>

<p>If the library at UNC put up a display of snowmen in the winter, harvest stuff in September, and flowers in the Spring, no one would think twice about it. As soon as you start adding Easter eggs to the flowers, you’re referring to a specific religious holiday. It doesn’t matter that the eggs may have originated in pagan practices, NOW they are “Easter” eggs.</p>

<p>It is really very simple.</p>

116

<p>No, it isn’t simple. It is only simple if you assume that a cultural symbol associated with a religious holiday promotes the religion. Personally, I think the secular symbols associated with Christmas do not really promote Christianity, and arguably do the opposite.</p>

117

<p>In the town where I lived and an ill-fated attempt was made at “Happy Holidays” there were letters in the paper and in conversations about how offensive it was to try and take the “Christ” out of Christmas. People were very, very angry about the attempt to any way aknowledge another religion aside from Christianity. So, please, spare me this arugements about how <em>Christ</em>mas trees and Merry <em>Christ</em>mas are cultural and not religious. </p>

<p>It was not until this spat in our town that I took my current position. Before that I just had not noticed. I’m used to others either truly believing or at least choosing to pretend that this is a Christian nation and “real” Americans are Christians. </p>

<p>Now I notice.</p>

118

<p>

</p>

<p>What bothers me is when Christians pretend that this year Kwanzaa could be declared a federal holiday, the malls could put up Kwanzaa decorations and Wal-Mart could order it’s associates to say “Happy Kwanzaa” and no one would bat an eye.</p>

<p>In otherwords, it’s not just one person saying “Merry Christmas” to another, is it?</p>

<p>If you do not understand what Christmas has to do with being a Christian, I cannot help you. Nor would I ever take offense at someone wishing me happiness. </p>

<p>On your birthday, do you go around wishing others a happy birthday? When you get a new job, do you say to strangers, “congratulations!” Of course not. But because Christmas is special to you, you feel it’s completely appropriate to wish others “Merry Christmas.” No matter how common it has become, it’s odd. </p>

<p>Here is the bottom line…it is just rude, it’s sometimes hurtful and there is an easy alternative. It’s rude to assume to know someone well enough to know their religion. It can hurt to be reminded several times a day for a month that I do not belong. Lastly, I do find it offensive when there is a very easy alternative (Happy Holidays) that a person must chose to reject everytime they chose to say “Merry Christmas” to a total stranger (me.)</p>