"No penalty for not submitting test scores" - really? None at all?

@AlmostThere2018 I don’t know! This is uncharted territory!

At the top schools, I believe that everyone is over estimating the impact of test score. I believe that it is actually really easy to know what students would have done well by looking at the other elements on the application. This however is consistent with the prevalence Of people on this site that retake 34/35 ACTs thinking it will really help their application.

I think this might be a good idea IF you were really not able to take a test from March - October. But as I said before, err on the side of caution and do your best to get in a test (or maybe two) by November 1st.

I just don’t trust the adcoms (from colleges that that have never been TO) that they will do the right thing and give “no test” applicants the same benefit of the doubt as applicants who do submit scores. If 75% of the applicants submit a score, are they going to give the other 25% an equal chance of admissions? That’s the million $ question.

Lastly, this might only be an issue at your reach and high reach colleges if your other factors such as high GPA, class rank, rigor, and ECs for your match, low match and safety colleges will be well above the norm.

For example, if you are a 4.0 student with many AP classes applying to Arizona State; not submitting a test score will probably not hurt you. If you’re applying to Dartmouth without a score, that might be more problematic?

Acceptance results this year are going to be fascinating. TO is going to help some but likely hurt others.

Others might disagree, but if I was an AO (at a newly TO college) reading about six test cancellations in the “Anything else we should know?” section of the application, I would feel better about that candidate being TO than I would about a TO candidate who made no mention of a test score or any attempt at one. That’s not to say everyone shut out of a test or two should mention that on their application. That could backfire if the AO sees it as making an excuse, coming across as insecure - when it might be better to say nothing and take pride in an otherwise strong application that best represents you. However, being shut out of six+ (six!!) does seem to imply some degree of persistence and focus. And optimism! I don’t have advice for you here, just my opinion.

Fingers crossed the August-December tests all happen.

@AlmostThere2018 someone mentioned above that maybe lack of testing could be mentioned in the guidance counselor recommendation. That’s brilliant if you ask me. That way, it doesn’t look like the student didn’t try to get a test or maybe even fibbed (!!) and said they tried to sit for one but could not and it comes from an authority figure. If D has the rest of her tests cancelled, I will definitely see if her GC would consider mentioning it in her letter. I won’t tell her to do it but, if she feels it’s relevant and is willing to mention it, this could be a good answer. Not saying it will make a difference in admissions but at least it would clear up why there is no test.

As for your S and his score, I think he should submit it for safeties. I still don’t know if it is a good idea for the rest of the list. I was told to think of it like this (if the student has a test) - does it help the application or hurt it? In a normal year, would you be happy with sending that score? Does it match the rigor and grades on the transcript? Obviously no one has the right answer and it might be that submitting scores for some schools makes more sense than for other schools. You just don’t want to put anything out there to give a reason to deny.

@AlmostThere2018 we are meeting with the CC tomorrow and I can’t wait to hear what she says. But because my S’s only SAT test is lopsided and he’s STEM, we probably won’t submit that one except at the “safer” schools (though UCs are all one app so that’s tough). The SAT doesn’t enhance his application because his GPA is comparatively better at almost @3.9 UW with lots of rigor. We just found out his school is planning to offer the ACT test in October! so crunch prep will begin very shortly and then we will very anxiously be awaiting the results just before the EA deadline. Personally, I wouldn’t mention personal test cancelations unless I had no ability to test at all.

It does bother me @homerdog the way they have it worded on the common app. It looks like they assume that you have a test, and don’t want to submit it. We don’t have any schools that were previously TO. UC has been very holistic with past review but has public policies that do not favor S.

Helpful feedback @homerdog and @NateandAllisMom.

I was thinking of the test score as ‘confirming’ information surrounding the rest of his application b/c it’s in range. But @homerdog you’re suggesting not to submit if it’s doesn’t fully ‘match’ or enhance the rest of his application.

I would agree with that approach 100% in ‘normal’ times for TO colleges. However, I guess I’m inclined to think that during these COVID TO times the calculus is altered because with so many folks NOT submitting a score, there is some advantage to submitting something that’s in range. In other words, for no-score applicants to colleges that are new to being TO, there’s a missing puzzle piece and colleges may not assume the best. But for an applicant with a score that is good (but not excellent), they may view it favorably?

The crux of this gets to the heart of this thread – not trusting many TO colleges. I’d love to get some 411 from some college consultants on this. @NateandAllisMom, do let us know what you learn! :slight_smile:

Also, I like the idea of including testing context info in the GC recommendation letter. I guess I still think providing ‘just the facts’ info with no commentary (“I would have scored a 36, I’m sure!!” :))might be okay. I don’t see it as making an excuse but rather providing context for how to review the application. I mean, I suppose folks could and do lie so AOs might be skeptical; I hadn’t considered that. But that’s true throughout the application, really.

As said, this is uncharted territory. I do not believe that the TO policy is a ruse. But this is new to a lot of the schools and AOs. We all get to find out how this works.

The other parts of the application are going to count more, when there are no test scores. Very possible that the highest test scores submitted will count more. Certainly, top studebts who just don’t test well are going to get a boost in their chances.

Put the eggs. In several baskets, and see what pans out. This is new for everyone

@cptofthehouse Yep. Lots of apps.

@RichInPitt, I believe, mentioned close acquaintance with an Ivy League AO in some of his/her posts. Would you be able to share anything about their approach to TO?

At least all of this college uncertainty is taking my mind off of Covid for a spell. It’s extra tricky because we don’t know how many others have a competitive test score that they will submit.

Also the other private school in our city kicked out the public school kids on the Fall tests and now will only test their own students. So I’m thinking the curve might be sharp this Fall if a lot of kids have given up or are not able to test.

We definitely have more target schools on our list than in a typical year.

No, I don’t think it’s just some warm and fuzzy. Nor is it major national or international awards.

What I’m saying is, with or without scores (or very appropriately strong scores, ) you need the rest of what that highly competitive college wants in its class. That requires knowing your targets well, far more than why College X suits you or what you want to be after graduation.

I think too many focus on comparisons within their own hs. But this is what I call the college leap. Lots of highly qualified applicants, a buyer’s market. If she wants SFS, do we assume some interest in international relations or related, some global awareness and involvement? “Show, not just tell.”

If so (and I won’t get into how,) then her lack of scores- or their not being in top range (most important being those related to the possible major)- can have less impact. But most kids present as hs kids, doing well but limited to the ordinary hs context and opportunities. How does she match what W, M, or SFS will look for? Do you feel you have an idea of what that is? For top colleges, it’s a lot more than falling into the 25th-75th range. It’s a more strategic approach.

We don’t know what your D has done.

As for kids with no opportunity to test or retest, of course AOs will understand. But that puts more pressure on what does show in the app. And whether you present a match, as they see it.

And imo, it’s not that hard to get the better read on what they do value. But it’s work.

Thank you fpr your very eloquent response, @lookingforward
I completely agree comparisons within HS are pretty useless for the college leap, as you put it.
On the other hand, HS can be inspirational, if a big chunk of student population gets accepted to dreamy colleges, year after year.

I agree with @lookingforward. This advice has been given in past threads before Covid and wide spread TO… It does take time to go to virtual admissions meetings and read up on each college but, if you look hard enough, you can see if the student fits. You might also discover that a student does not fit and doesn’t have the application that will put him into the acceptance pile. It’s not all about rigor and grades and tests although, of course, that’s a baseline for the top schools that @ArtsyKidDad 's student seems to be considering.

I think that, once the rigor/grades hurdle has been passed (even without a test score), it comes down to if the AO thinks the student will contribute on campus. They want to know how they will do that. They know what the kids are “like” on their campuses and they need to see that fit in the essays, ECs, and recs. I’ll use S19 as an example because he had the grades and rigor and test score to pass the first hurdles but would he fit in at every top 30 school. No way. He wouldn’t even be happy at most of them and would feel the lack of fit.

One way, we’ve been discerning fit this year with D21 is by watching virtual student panels and not just one per school. She’s signed up for multiple student panels at schools she thinks she likes and this way she can "meet"many kids who go to school at these schools. Wow it’s been enlightening. There are a few schools where she thinks “I want to be friends with every single one of these kids” and some where she thinks “these are absolutely not my people”. You can see what kind of student gets accepted to each school. Now, of course, these kids are chosen by the school to represent them and there’s always a diversity on campuses but they were chosen to do these panels by admissions. I think that’s kind of telling. Does your student fit with what these kids do on campus academically and in their campus ECs? Would your student have something to contribute?

@homerdog
I started the thread trying to see what people in the know can tell about the TO aspect of the 2021 admission puzzle, so entirely new to the vast majority of colleges that went that way.
It was never “please chance my daughter for the top schools,” and frankly, I am surprised how strongly it shifted toward that, and then how it evolved into warnings how hard it is to get to top schools, with some unwarranted assumptions.
Of course, we are looking for close matches, reach out to professors, attend online sessions; we’ve had about 10 interviews. We saw several colleges in person, 2 before COVID, and a few after. We go this week to see a few more. We are not chasing prestige, it just happens that some excellent programs matching my D’s specific interests and talents are at the top - although not exclusively. Because this is not a “chance me” thread, I will not elaborate on D’s accomplishments.

That’s fine. I think the point is that know one can say for sure how TO will affect your D’s chances but that the rest of the app has to be super strong AND show fit.

@homerdog I am a bit confused by the app has to show fit, can you explain a little what you mean by that?

What kind of student do they look for? What kind of student is successful there? For many elite non-Ivy schools, there’s a book called The Hidden Ivies and there’s a section for each college describing what kind of student would thrive on their campus. It’s a good read. It’s maybe less important for big state schools (even the best of them).

There are vibes on campuses. Who fits at Duke might not fit at Boston College. Who fits at Harvard might not fit at Cornell. They offer different environments.

Also, the schools need to know how the student will contribute. Will they be writing for the student newspaper? Did they do some research that feeds into something going on in the labs at the school? That kind of stuff.

Applicants who dig deep into researching the schools on their list generally have better lists and more success because they find places that match. It’s not just about wanting what the college offers. It’s about what the student has that the college wants and if they see the student as someone who would happy on their campus.

I know several people who had sterling applications. My dear friend’s daughter went to one of the known to be most rigorous college prep schools in the country with a very strong track record of students going to top schools. Even adjusting for legacy, development and celebrity status which their college matriculation book attempts to do, they have an outstanding placement record. The young woman I know, took the most rigorous courses there, did well, making the CumLaude Society, was active in school activities in leadership roles, won a number of school awards—nominated and voted upon by faculty. , and had some remarkable ECs and achievements outside of school too, but no hook to put her in a separate admissions pool. No legacy, no URM or challenging background, no development, no friends of, no celebrity, no athletic recruits. But a very strong application with the exception of test scores. Not low, but just not up there. Within the upper 25% of the schools’ ranges, but close.

She was waitlisted at all of her choices other than her safety school—her state school. Didn’t clear any of the waitlists either despite strenuous lobbying through school counselor who seemed to know it wasn’t going to happen. There are waitlists and waitlists. Some of the school AOs did. cite her test scores. There simply were too many applicants like her with better test scores.

I believe her test score hurt her. And that if they weren’t there to see, her chances would have been better. Not every school would have bitten, but several just might have. Especially, if there are enough kids going TO in the applicant pool. It wouldn’t have made her a slam dunk. Not at the most selective colleges, but she would have had a bit of a better shot , not being ordered by test score and falling short of those in her category.

It seems parents and students have reason to be concerned…

https://www.chicagotribune.com/coronavirus/ct-act-sat-coronavirus-covid-college-application-20200810-4orfahifyzh4ff34tsteh2h7o4-story.html

"About 1,000 schools had already declared their admissions to be test optional before the pandemic, meaning applicants theoretically won’t suffer for failing to include a score. Bob Schaeffer of the National Center for Fair and Open Testing, a watchdog group that aims to improve college assessments, said he believes the schools really mean it, but he doesn’t blame parents for being wary.

He is less confident about colleges that made the switch after the pandemic began, since they have not established a track record. Karen Marks, a former Dartmouth admissions officer turned admissions consultant, said their sincerity probably varies.

“Some institutions will not disadvantage students,” she said. “I think others, even with the best of intentions, have been using this paradigm forever, so asking them to suddenly disregard a data point to which they’ve been giving so much weight is tough. Others might be doing it for the optics.”

Andy Borst, director of undergraduate admissions at the U. of I.‘s flagship campus, which in June placed a one-year moratorium on its testing requirement, said the school is indeed serious: The lack of a test score won’t hurt students when it comes to admission, scholarships or getting into an honors program.

But could an impressive score help? He allowed it might.

“We know that some students have taken the test and are very proud of their test scores, and we didn’t want to say to a student who got a 1500 (on the SAT), ‘Your accomplishment doesn’t mean anything,‘” he said."