<p>Your hypothesis, then, is that some women, but few men, “overachieve”, in all majors? So then we’d expect to see female “overachievers” in proportion to female students in math and physics as well-- but since we have few women in those fields, we’d have even fewer “overachievers”. I wonder if that’s true. The study found no “overachievers” in math, physics or chemistry of either gender. Of the 12 fields they studied, Political Science, Sociology and Spanish had the large majority of “overachievers.”</p>
<p>From the study:
“To reiterate, SAT(M) = 600 seems to be the lowest score at which even a very motivated student has a chance for mastery [in Math and Physics]. From the data one might guess that only for SAT(M) well above 700 do students have more than a 50 percent chance of obtaining GPA > 3.5. That is, a student with average motivation or conscientiousness probably needs SAT(M) well above 700 to have a high probability of obtaining mastery. We were unable to fi nd any similar threshold (either in SAT(R) or SAT(M)) in other majors, including economics, sociology, history, philosophy, biology, chemistry, etc.” (bold mine)</p>
<p>I agree, there is a need to find a way for students who have aspirations to study STEM fields in college but who have low test scores to succeed. The idea of Community College was presented in an earlier post, however, is a city like Chicago, where many of the high schools are not too good, the level of the city colleges in math and science is also questionable. I see it every year at [Illinois</a> Institute of Technology](<a href=“http://www.iit.edu%5DIllinois”>http://www.iit.edu) with incoming students from the city and transfers form the city colleges. I think that some of these students have never been exposed to the connections that seem so natural to me when thinking about math and science and which I always try to emphasize when helping my own children.</p>
<p>We have experimented this year with a sort of “year zero” for such students. We let them know that 5 years will be the norm for them and then we give them a reduced load in the first two semesters (year zero) which focuses on fundamental math and science but also puts them in some introductory courses in their major of interest so that they get a connection to the major and to other students. Sometimes we have to do the same for transfer students who have already taken Calculus at the city colleges. The idea is to give students who have desire and are wiling to work hard the time to discover the kinds of connections which will help them make it through the full degree. Will they all be “A” students and go to graduate school? no, but I think that even a solid “B-C” degree in STEM can lead to a successful career.</p>
<p>At a well regarded engineering school I’m familiar with, they have a 91% graduation rat. This is in Canada, so they do not select on any standardized tests (unless you are an American application), and they go by senior grades alone (in physics 12, chem 12, calc 12, english 12-- as with all Canadian university admissions, there is no need for nor advantage to taking AP courses). </p>
<p>They offer, along with a mentor system and lots of available tutoring, a special condensed ‘re-do’ section of first term for those that need it. Basically if you blow first term or simply need to keep up your GPA for whatever reason, you can take this special section, then take your second term into the summer months. Apparently those that opt into this special re-do section and those that do not are indistinguishable later on (there is no stigma attached to it either). </p>
<p>This is an accredited engineering school, students do well in the job market and grad school. Given the school is not particularly hard to get into yet they have a high graduation rate, I think they have found the solution to uneven preparation and it throw into question the need for inherent aptitude.</p>
<p>But isn’t the problem of uneven preparation much less in Canada, with higher and more uniform standards in high school, so that there is much more assurance that a high school graduate with good grades in Canada is ready for post-secondary education than a high school graduate with good grades in the US is? With high uniform standards in high schools, there is no need for standardized testing and much less need for remedial course work in college.</p>
<p>That is the logic I was following; it would have been interesting to see the data presented by gender since they clearly tracked that information.</p>
<p>Ucbalumnus, I do agree with what you are saying in that the preparation is far more uniform than you’d see in the US (and likely students with similar senior grades have more similar abilities). But my example does suggest that this extra term helps to even out some degree of difference in preparation and/or ability (but possibly not as much as might be needed elsewhere).</p>
<p>quote:I found it interesting that Texas might phase out low performing physics programs. The same thing may be happening here in California.unquote</p>
<p>I am also concerned about this as well. My younger son started as a Freshman Physics major at CSU Sacramento this year and when there was a get together with the head of the Department for new freshman Physics majors this past August my son reports there were only about 15 other students there. This is a university with a total enrollment of about 25,000 students and out of about 4,000 new freshman only 15 planning to major in Physics. There is no graduate program in Physics at Sacramento State. </p>
<p>Because of the huge number of Biology and Pre-med students the lower division non-calculus based two semester sequence is almost impossible to get into and because of the large number of engineering students who have to take it the three semester Calculus based Physics sequence is severely impacted. The only reason my son was able to enroll in it as a Freshman is because the Physics Department held a position open for him. The upper division Physics courses are a completely different story with only 10 or 15 students signed up per semester for courses such as Quantum Mechanics.</p>
<p>The 600 new Psychology majors cost the Sacramento State very little to teach but the 15 new Physics majors require expensive labs and equipment to educate. With the worsening budget outlook for the CSUs I am afraid Physics will be at the top of their list to close. My son scored well above 700 in the Math SAT and in the high 600s in Critical Reading but also has a mild case of Aspberger’s syndrome. He enjoys Physics, has a strong aptitude for it and Physics is a major where a certain amount of social awkwardness does not make someone the object of ridicule by his peers. I think that if the CSU Sacramento Physics Department is disbanded and my son was forced to major in something like Sociology he would be miserable and have a bleak future.</p>
<p>The only other university in the area that offers a Physics major is UC Davis but since UCs almost never accept transfer students from CSUs I do not see that as a viable alternative.</p>
<p>If the physics major is discontinued before existing students have a chance to complete the major and graduate, then it would seem that the most obvious alternative major is math, not sociology. Math is probably in less danger of being discontinued as a major, due to students who choose it for pre-professional reasons (actuarial jobs).</p>
<p>Only about 15% of people getting an undergraduate physics degree subsequently get a Ph.D, BTW. Statistically, a physics major is very much a “pre-professional” choice.</p>
<p>What does “pre-professional” choice mean, fignewton?</p>
<p>Lemaitre1, I do know that my son’s professor at SDSU received a decent grant for a piece of equipment for the microscope that my son built, thereby enabling them to go forward with research this spring. It seems if physics departments are to go forward, it will be by outside grants perhaps. (I don’t know anything about where these come from, though)</p>
<p>“Pre-professional” means that there is a seemingly obvious post-graduation direction for the given major (other than the academic research or teaching in the subject that applies to all majors). E.g. major in mechanical engineering -> work as a mechanical engineer; major in applied math with actuarial emphasis -> work as an actuary; major in music -> work as a musician; major in accounting -> work as an accountant.</p>
<p>So you’re saying physics is <em>not</em> pre-professional, correct? Physics major does not equal physicist upon graduation. Physics major usually means more schooling, correct?</p>
<p>Sbjdorlo
My sense is that your son, like most physics grads at a place like Princeton, will go on to get a PhD. When I got my undergrad Physics degree I went right to work doing a jib similar to an engineer.</p>
<p>Physics majors are probably more likely to aspire to graduate school for PhD study and physics research. Of course, many eventually do not go to graduate school and find other jobs after bachelor’s degree graduation, but that is more often a “plan B”, unlike for some other majors. Additionally, the jobs physics majors take are often not directly in physics (e.g. in CS, finance, or engineering, which are relatively good jobs, although they will be seen as second choice behind actual majors in the fields).</p>
<p>When I graduated.many yeara ago. Lots of Physics majors went to work in aerospace. My job title was Staff Scientist. Many went back for grad degrees. But many did not. I went back for a BSEE and an unrelated MS. Things may be different these days.</p>
<p>Yes, I think my dad was a physics major (maybe math? i don’t think engineering) and while he did finish his masters, he didn’t get a PhD, but ended up as a systems engineer (i always thought of him as an engineering physicist) and he worked in telescopes and aerospace during the hey day of the space program. He feels he was so lucky to have a job he absolutely loved and get paid doing it. It was a vastly interesting job, for sure.</p>
<p>My son actually plans to major in math at this moment in time but things change quickly.</p>
<p>Pure math is not exactly a pre-professional major either, although adding a few courses in areas of application like CS, economics, finance, and statistics enables a lot of “plan B” options. (Applied math often is chosen for pre-professional reasons.)</p>