North Korea tests nuke

Parent Cafe
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Well, that would certainly explain your prior posts. Possibly if you “bonked” in a pattern that spelled Clinton, it might not hurt so much.</bonk,></p>

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<p>Another one to add to Razor’s and DRJ’s list: Pakistan is one of the biggest successes of Bush’s foreign policies. Prior to 9/11 Pakistan was firmly aligned with the Taliban; after 9/11 Bush got them to become aligned with us, allowing over-flights for the war in Afghanistan and being responsible for the capture of many al Qaeda members, including the 9/11 mastermind. This has led to the preemption of many follow-on plots against us and other targets in the West. In a perfect world the tribal area of Pakistan would be under direct control of the government and they would be able to clean up the rest of the “swamp” of Taliban and al Qaeda, but considering where Pakistan was and where they are now, it was a HUGE foreign policy victory.</p>

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<p>Removing the Taliban counts as a success? Not from what I read lately: They’re back.</p>

<p>Pakistan another success? When most reports claim Bin Laden is hiding in Pakistan? With the rights record etc. of that country? Pakistan was in the Taliban camp before 9/11? Is this another right wing talking point? </p>

<p>From today’s Washington Post:

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<p>The article is an interesting summary of the implications and history.</p>

<p>Here’s the full link: <a href=“http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/10/09/AR2006100901130.html[/url]”>http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/10/09/AR2006100901130.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Don’t know if you need to register.</p>

<p>So, IMHO, the “axis of evil” speech, coupled with bellicose behaviour following, is what pushed both Iran and N. Korea to accelerate their efforts. Indeed, the recent sabre rattles toward Iran probably pushed Kim over the edge.</p>

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Or, to cut to the chase, “It’s our fault.” The U.S. forces otherwise good people to behave badly. </p>

<p>NK’s “test” is simply the culmination of a process that has been ongoing for nearly two decades. It’s just a way of demonstrating what we already knew–that they have the bomb, and they built it with materiel supplied by Clinton/Albright.</p>

<p>FF is exactly right about Pakistan, which was the most dangerous place in the world in the immediate aftermath of 9/11. The fact that we have been able to work with them at all is remarkable, as is the method we used to ensure cooperation. Do you think that we have allowed the Pakistani government free access to their own nukes lo these five years? Guess again.</p>

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<p>Driver, where do you get these thoughts? Does everything need to be so black and white? </p>

<p>The fact is that US actions did contribute to the result. Does that mean “it’s our fault”? </p>

<p>And, as for blaming Bill Clinton, you might want to go back to 1993 (!) to a Heritage Foundation (yes, that liberal think tank) editorial regarding the situation: <a href=“http://www.heritage.org/Research/AsiaandthePacific/bu190.cfm[/url]”>http://www.heritage.org/Research/AsiaandthePacific/bu190.cfm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>It says
[quote[ NUCLEAR THREAT IMMINENT? The United States and its allies must recognize that North Korea could very soon have one or more nuclear weapons. U.S. intelligence sources were hinting in early 1992 that North Korea could have a nuclear weapon by mid-1993. Recent public statements by the new Director of Central Intelligence are consistent with his predecessor’s assessment. Some South Korean government sources indicate that the North already may have more than one nuclear weapon. Regardless of these estimates, it is well known that North Korea is working hard to build a bomb. Its nuclear research facility is located near Yongbyon, about sixty miles north of the capital, Pyongyang. At this site are two nuclear reactors capable of producing plutonium.
[/quote]
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<p>So, how could Bill give them what they already had? Gimme a break. The fact is that Clinton’s efforts held off completion and testing for a long time. </p>

<p>Oh, it is well known that Pakistan provided N. Korea with the n bomb design. So much for being a good ally.</p>

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<p>Don’t hold your breath on Pakistan. The country is one coup away from becoming another Islamic republic, and one with nukes to boot.</p>

<p>And I just HOWL at the idea that we have toppled the Taliban. The group has resurfaced, strongly too, with suicide bombers blowing themselves up all over Afganistan (which wasn’t true at all before the US got involved).</p>

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This was meant as a joke, right? Of course the Taliban was not blowing themselves up before we were involved - they RAN the country. What do expect them to do, blow themselves up as a means of celebrating their control? Or possibly as a way to celebrate the stoning of a woman.</p>

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<a href=“Explainers | Council on Foreign Relations”>Explainers | Council on Foreign Relations;

<p>So I guess the new, re-born hero of the left had it all wrong as well.</p>

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<p>Pakistan? A Bush administration success story? LOL</p>

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<p>^^^^ another insightful contribution backed by sound reasoning and facts.</p>

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<p>In my opinion, whether Pakistan has been a success is a decision we’ll probably have to wait for history to decide. However, I think we can easily view as successful Pakistan’s assistance in dismantling A. Q. Khan’s nuclear weapons and proliferation program. That alone may have saved us from at least one nuclear confrontation, maybe more.</p>

<p>EDIT: And because of Khan, we also learned to whom he sold nuclear technology - Iran, Libya and North Korea.</p>

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<p>So, instead of TALKING to Korea, we push them into a corner…and we wonder wy they fight back</p>

<p>Why won’t Bush talk to them unilaterly? Is he afraid? I think so…if he doesn’t have any meetings, he can not take responsibility for the failure of his policy</p>

<p>North Korea is a country, yet, we disregard their leaders, who have put out their hand…I hate what is going on, and we very well might have ended up in this place, but to do so little is a true shame</p>

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<p>CGM,</p>

<p>We tried the “good cop, bad cop” thing under Clinton. It didn’t work. Now we’re trying the “whole world is against you, so you better change” thing. It may not work either but if it doesn’t, it will be North Korea’s fault, not America’s.</p>

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<p>“Or, to cut to the chase, “It’s our fault.” The U.S. forces otherwise good people to behave badly.”</p>

<p>Yup. I lived through that. U.S. liberates Iraq, people greet us with flowers. In January 2004, 31% of Iraqis approve of killing Americans. Then they see us up close and personal. Soldiers building schools and handing out candy bars; things getting better, Americans don’t know what good work they do over there. In September 2006, 61% of Iraqis - Kurds, Sunnis, and Shiites, approve of killing Americans.</p>

<p>Not only do they approve, they actually do it.</p>

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<p>Fundingfather:</p>

<p>OK, let me tell you why I’m laughing at the idea of Pakistan being a Bush policy success, Pakistan being considered “Terrorism Central” by many international observers. First, US has been an ally of – and a military supplier of – Pakistan for years. Much to the alarm and disgust of India, by the way, dismayed the US would support Pakistan’s repressive regimes hostile to India, the world’s largest democracy. So Pakistan’s willingness to throw the Bush administration a bone now and then is no wonder: we’ve been that country’s lifeline since its independence. Observers are dismayed by Pakistan’s supposed war on terror – a war that allows extremist groups to thrive right under authorities’ noses, and direct many (some say most or all) post-9/11 terrorist attacks. There’s evidence that Pakistan’s intelligence is not just tied to – but used by – the Taliban, that Osama Bin Laden’s cronies are holed up in Pakistan’s northern territories bordering with Afghanistan which Pakistan refuses to take under control. Pakistan has deals with militant extremist groups, still operates terrorist training camps and is now suspected in aiding North Korea’s nuclear program. Success story? Pakistan? LOL again.</p>

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<p>Katliamom,</p>

<p>I’m not sure if you meant this, but dismantling A. Q. Khan’s network was definitely more than “throw[ing] the Bush Administration a bone.” Khan was the source and leader of Pakistan’s nuclear weapons program and this program was dismantled at the insistence of the Bush Administration in March 2001. Khan then went into “private practice” (so to speak) and, again at American insistence, his activities were finally halted by Pervez Musharraf after 9/11. Pakistan has sheltered many people who threaten the US but none can equal the danger that A. Q. Khan represented.</p>

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Which observers?

you mean like the way they cooperated with the Brits to capture and interrogate the leaders of the plot to blow up 10 airlines?

tell that to the widows of the many Pakistani soldiers who died trying to do just so.

Any supporting evidence of any of this? If you can stifle your laughter long enough to provide any supporting evidence to anything that you claim it would be useful.</p>

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<p>The idea that Pakistan is “throwing a bone” is absurd. The Pakistanis are being sat upon by a very large dog that has its teeth on their collective throat, and has for the last five years. Pervez is hawking his book and looking to emigrate because he knows that one wrong move by the very bad folks that permeate his government will equal “instant parking lot.” One of the few decisive actions taken by Colin Powell post-9/11 was going to Pakistan and making it clear in no uncertain terms that their complete cooperation was not optional.</p>

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<p>Driver, fine, don’t call it throwing a bone. But to call Pakistan a success is equally absurd. I agree that SOME progress has been made in dealings with a terrorist-supporting, anti-democratic military government of a country that just happens to be long-term ally of the US. But you guys call that success??? Jeez, what’s abject failure to you guys???</p>

<p>Fundingfather, as for the supporting evidence to my hardly-revolutionary post, I provide a few links below. From pretty reliable major sources. There’s really nothing there that hasn’t been discussed only a zillion times in the daily press, but I guessed you missed it. Also, let me introduce you to this thing called google. Really easy to use. </p>

<p><a href=“http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,20420373-2703,00.html[/url]”>http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,20420373-2703,00.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p><a href=“http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,219181,00.html[/url]”>http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,219181,00.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p><a href=“http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/10/06/AR2006100600474.html[/url]”>http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/10/06/AR2006100600474.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p><a href=“http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/6033383.stm[/url]”>http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/6033383.stm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>Another “CC Archetype” category–posters who link to articles without analysis. What points did you hope to make with those links, k-mom? Can you distill the essence of what you’re getting at?</p>