Not even for the health of the mother, rape or incest

Parent Cafe
81

<p>I don’t really feel like it is any of my business when other people I don’t even know get married, when they start having sex, and whether or not that sex makes them feel disgusted with themselves in the morning. But I care very much about whether or not children are produced by people unable or uwilling to adequately parent. That affects all of society, not just the individuals involved. We can never make inroads on poverty, child abuse/neglect, crime, and a wealth of other social problems if people are unable to prevent having children they can’t afford or don’t want, or if young women end up with less education than they would otherwise have. It’s fine to say that society should provide more support for women and children. I agree. But money does not make an inadequate, unwilling parent into June Cleaver. It’s also fine to say that teens and women have the alternative of putting unplanned babies up for adoption. But the reality is that few of them do. They cannot be compelled to unless some egregious harm has already occured. And they have no moral obligation to. Although it is wonderful when babies are adopted into loving homes, young women have no more moral obligation to be baby donors for infertile couples than the rest of us have to be kidney donors for people on dialysis. </p>

<p>Abortion has been with us since ancient times. Making it illegal does not eliminate it. Worldwide, roughly 40% of abortions are performed illegally. In other words, criminalization of abortion has not made a serious dent in the willingness of significant numbers of women to go to desparate extremes in order to avoid continuing unwanted pregnancies.</p>

<p>Living in an industrialized country in the 21st century means that we have a unique opportunity to actually reduce the number of abortions by reducing the number of unplanned pregnancies. That means readily available contraceptives and factual sex ed. It means ready access to measures like the “morning after pill”. We also have the ability to make the abortions which will inevitably occur anyway take place as early in gestation as possible, when fewer people have ethical issues. Making medical abortions, which occur in the first 49 days, more available will further that goal. Things like waiting periods and forcing women to jump through hoops before they can obtain an abortion will work against that goal. Some women may be prevented from having an abortion by those sorts of restrictions. But the many women who are truly committed to ending their pregnacies are unlikely to be deterred. They will just have abortions later in pregnancy when the moral issues are more problemmatic for more of us.</p>

82

<p>emeraldkity,</p>

<p>“half my friends ( who range in age from 40 to 60), did get married in their early-mid 20s. to their first husband- because women are no longer- generally dependent on men for social position or income- you don’t have to stay with your first husband.”</p>

<p>What a positive attitude you have! Marry your first husband young and stay with him until you can afford to dump him. Do you suggest we change the wedding vows from “'til death do us part” to “'til financial independence do us part”?</p>

83

<p>I mentioned that because my friends who waited till they were older to marry, till they had finished their education and had a better idea of who would make a good life partner than a 20 year old does, had more success if you define success as being married once.
Women and men, need not be dependent on a partner economically, and need not marry young as has been suggested above if they do not choose to.
Young people often seem to confuse love with lust which does not make a basis for a strong partnership.</p>

84

<p>Well, don’t you have to meet someone with whom you are compatible before you marry? </p>

<p>I’m in my mid-twenties but have yet to have a functional relationship last for more than a few weeks. Marriage is not in the cards with the way my love life is going. “Get married sooner” is not a solution at all - do you really think that your beloved spouses are interchangeable?</p>

85

<p>“Well, don’t you have to meet someone with whom you are compatible before you marry?”</p>

<p>OBVIOUSLY.</p>

<p>“do you really think that your beloved spouses are interchangeable?”</p>

<p>NO.</p>

<p>But, how do you meet someone with whom you are compatible?</p>

<p>Interestingly, both conservative and liberal posters on CC seem to have similar advice for COLLEGE students who are lonely and are feeling that no one else shares their interests, bent, personality, etc. Get involved in activities that you enjoy, and you will likely find people whom you enjoy being around. The wisdom of this advice does not end with college graduation or even with grad school. There seem to be fewer EASY ways of meeting people after college, but there are numerous volunteer organizations, religious groups and services, etc. where you can accomplish something while also keeping your eyes open for developing friendships.</p>

<p>Additionally, if you are truly desiring to get married, then you should act like it. Having a large number of three-week-long romantic relationships is not good practice for a permanent marriage. Why not simply remain friends for more than a few weeks, perhaps even MONTHS, as you share your interests (in an activity, volunteer organization, etc.) and get to know each other first, finding out if you are compatible (or incompatible, as the case may be), BEFORE having a romantic relationship?</p>

<p>As I have previously stated, this advice is only intended for those “right-wing wackos” who want to wait for marriage before having sex (which is, after all, the only 100 percent guaranteed birth control method for avoiding out-of-wedlock pregnancy), and then have one spouse (or at least until death).</p>

86

<p>PAFather, on behalf of many women I know, we’ll pass on your kind suggestion. I have no desire to return to the 1950’s in any aspect. Once a woman is married, both her education and her career tend to become subordinate to the man’s, a situation that I realize some would look on approvingly. Much better, for the woman, to enter marriage with education completed and career, if she so chooses, begun. </p>

<p>No M-R-S tracks, in either education or career, thank you very much.</p>

<p>I know that divorce rates for teens are sky high…I do wonder at what age the number approaches “normal.” </p>

<p>Fwiw, TheMom and I were in our early 30’s when we married, both having had a number of relationships, some serious, some not. I was not averse to marriage but the women I was interested in marrying did not reciprocate and vice-versa. There is something to be said, I think, for waiting until at least the mid-20’s (typical now) when odds are that both of you have settled down more into who you are rather than being on the road to who you’ll be.</p>

87

<p>“Interestingly, both conservative and liberal posters on CC seem to have similar advice for COLLEGE students who are lonely and are feeling that no one else shares their interests, bent, personality, etc. Get involved in activities that you enjoy, and you will likely find people whom you enjoy being around.”</p>

<p>Are you suggesting group sex? ;)</p>

88

<p>

This sounds like you’re stuck in the 50’s, which I know isn’t true! I just don’t think that this is the case today, and it certainly wasn’t for me. </p>

<p>We were married while I was still in college and I have never felt that H impeded any activity I was interested in, whether related to work or education. The only impediment I’ve encountered is my difficulty in reconciling the needs of raising children with those of the working world. I don’t think the blocks women face are imposed by our husbands, but are probably self-imposed by ourselves as mothers.</p>

89

<p>PaFather - </p>

<p>Sound, but entirely misplaced advice. I know too many wonderful, stable people who are looking for long-term relationships but are unable to find them. Most of the people I know who are about to get married sacrificed most everything for it - their #1 priority throughout life was men. </p>

<p>As for me - can’t help but take your attitude personally - pray tell, how the hell am I supposed to get into a long-term relationship when men dump me after three weeks because I won’t sleep with them? This has happened to a lot of my girlfriends, too - men hear “no sex until marriage” and run. Oh, other advice of yours:
*Be friends first. Check. (Most relationships of mine, I was friends with the person for at least a year. I realized after a while that it’s actually a bad method. See below.)
*Be involved. Check - I have no free time and a list of non-academic activities a mile long. Sports! Teaching! ECs! Presiding over clubs! Throwing parties!<br>
*Be social. Check.<br>
*Let them know my values up-front. Check. (Men think they are special. I’ve cried on guy friend’s shoulders after heinous break-ups (over sex, of course); they’ve sympathized; I’ve dated them later and they are completely surprised that I won’t sleep with them. Hellooo! The men I date are well aware of my stance before anything happens, but they still think the same doesn’t apply to them because we’ve been buddies first.)</p>

<p>It’s not all about “meeting people” - I completely wish it were. I know a woman who dated almost 100 men before finding her husband - and every man she dated, for a decade running, was completely intimidated by her. Most wonderful woman on earth, but they couldn’t see past the fact that she’s successful and smart. </p>

<p>You can meet dozens of men, but they can all be completely wrong. Basically, the real way, as a woman, to get married is to sacrifice everything for the relationship - be smart but not as smart, be perky, happy, and uncomplicated - your standard 1950s girl. Men just need a degree from an Ivy and a high-powered career. Doesn’t guarantee a good relationship or a healthy marriage, though…</p>

<p>Just don’t think that “marry sooner” is the solution to anything. </p>

<p>FYI: the other completely sure-fire way to avoid illegitimate pregnancies is a vascetomy. Don’t see men going for either option, though…</p>

90

<p>Aries, it sounds like you are doing a good job at being true to yourself. And in the end, that’s what matters. Whether or not you marry, you still only have this one life, and it’s value is not dependent on having a spouse or not. (As you clearly understand!) </p>

<p>I disagree with you a little about the idea that the only path to marriage is through capitulation. In fact, I’d suggest that that’s the quickest path to divorce. A good marriage maximizes the fulfillment of both parties, neither at the expense of the other. And I know several women who have careers and education that would be considered more prestigious than their husbands.</p>

<p>In the end, there’s just an element of luck, and that’s not something anyone can control. I can be a little fatalistic at time, and I think that if it’s meant to be it will. Stick to your values, and I’m sure someday you’ll meet someone who will appreciate that and will want to be a true partner through life. In the meantime, achieve all you can – for me, the real limit on career or achievement is motherhood, which I’m sure many would not agree with.</p>

91

<p>sjmom2329, I completely agree with your post #88. Any woman who delays getting married because she thinks her future husband will lord over her and demand that she entirely live for his life, career, etc., has met a bunch of crumbs.</p>

<p>TheDad: “I know that divorce rates for teens are sky high.” Who advocated TEENAGERS getting married? In a previous post, I indicated that for those who were interested in waiting for marriage to have sex, getting married in early 20’s, after college is completed and career is on track, might be a good way of dealing with sexual temptation. Obviously, this requires meeting an appropriate potential spouse. However, I have definitely met many, many people who are on the career-success track and who have decided that they definitely do not want to get married until they finish the PhD, MD, residency, etc., and then later realize that it is a LOT harder to fiund a spouse in mid-30’s than they had anticipated. These people have dated plenty of people with whom thay had A LOT in common in their 20’s, but since they were postponing marriage at that time, they let that person slip away.</p>

<p>ariesathena: I understand the difficulty of a bright, young girl looking to get married. Two of my sisters both “married down” and subsequently chose to seek less high-powered careers (I placed “married down” in quotes, because I do not think any less of their husbands - they are wonderful guys and husbands, full of integrity, and my sisters are happily married - but they were less educated and had less income earning potential than did my sisters). Although it might not seem “fair,” it probably IS the case that many men have difficulty being happily married to a woman who is substantially more successful than the man is. Such a successful girl still has several options: (1) be a super-achiever, and demand that any man recognize and agree with this strategy, and that he completely support you in all career endeavors, even at the possible exclusion of a potential family; (2) drop your career completely, primp and preen, and find a guy who demands that you worship and support him in all of his endeavors; or (3) something in between. While I would never suggest to a woman that she should intentionally have a LOUSY career, some careers do naturally make it more difficult to find a husband. If you are positive that you will never any interest in having children, then option (1) above is probably fine. Just as having children requires some sacrifice or compromise, marriages may as well. But when you find a man who is worth marrying, he will be interested in making you happy, and will help to find a situation that is challenging (possibly less challenging, or DIFFERENTLY challenging, than your highest-powered career option), as you both plan your family, careers, etc. Example: a woman in our church is an MD (as is her husband). Rather than working full-time, she works part-time (to be with her kids) and then during every summer volunteers on a couple two-week medical missions trips to South or Central America. This is definitely a compromise career. She will never be famous (as her husband, who is a faculty member at an Ivy med school), but she definitely has a very fulfilling life. A guy who is worth marrying will help you to find some way to feel challenged and useful, even if you have the highest academic credentials. Some bright women (e.g. my wife) even completely forego their careers and homeschool their kids.</p>

<p>However, while I understand your possibly difficult position, if all of the guys you meet break up after a few weeks because you do not want to have sex with them, then perhaps you are looking in the wrong places for decent guys to marry. Not all guys are this way. Are there no places you can think of finding a guy worth marrying who agrees not to have sex before marriage? How about something like eHarmony.com?</p>

<p>By the way, for those who will call me (or men in general) Neanderthal for believeing that many men would have difficulty being married to a substantially more successful woman, I do not apologize for observing that men and women are “wired differently.” A woman berating her husband or telling him that he has a lousy career in front of him is generally more hurtful to a man than the same situation would be for a woman. This is definitely the man’s shortcoming. But women also have some tendencies that guys do not have as frequently, as illustrated below:</p>

<p>Wife: “Honey, do I look fat?”
Husband: “Honey, do I look stupid?”</p>

92

<p>PAF, I understood your assumption about marrying in the early 20’s. You raised the point about divorce rates for those who marry later and I honestly don’t know. But as a <em>data point</em>, the teen rate is sky high. It would be interesting to know, as opposed to speculating, what the divorce rate vs. age at first marriage curve looks like. </p>

<p>Moreover, your handwaving does nothing to address the basic fact that the gap between marriage and puberty has gone from being close to nil to, even under your scenario, 8-10 years…and that’s without taking into consideration that such still disproportionately impacts the ambitions and potential for high-achieving young women.</p>

<p>And please spare the smarmy pious concerns about women not being able to find partners if they delay marriage. It would be more believable if you were interested in addressing their concerns instead of promoting your agenda.

Ah…I see. You know, it’s not okay for either party to berate the other and the supposition that it is “less hurtful” for the woman to be so berated is an astounding bit of chauvinism. For young women like my D and, I suspect, AriesAthena, any man who can’t accept a substantially successful woman, whether “more” successful or not, <em>is</em> a Neanderthal and not worth considering. And you’re right, it doesn’t leave one who endorses or excuses this attitude as natural or acceptable in particularly high regard.</p>

93

<p>

I can’t agree with that either. Perhaps you overstated what you meant. Berating–period–is probably the most destructive thing that could be introduced into a marriage, or any other relationship based on trust, affection, and respect.</p>

94

<p>Alert: Snow flurries in Hell.</p>

95

<p>This thread brings to mind the importance of using birth control in the first place, hence no “unplanned” pregnancies. It’s not like my parents’ generation (1940’s) when preventing pregnancy was a bigger deal. (although there was a built in stigma about premarital sex which was its own form of birth control) There are so many options for people now. Why aren’t they taking advantage of them?</p>

96

<p>well birth control does fail-( I got pg with an IUD in place) but I agree sometimes ( often for some people) they are verycareless about their use of birthcontrol
I wish there was accurate information available in all schools, because for some kids- that is the only time they are going to get the info.</p>

97

<p>Competence with birth control, for starters, requires fact-based sex education.
(EK, don’t mean to suggest that failures are due to lack of competence; use in the first place can’t be expected before education.)</p>

<p>Plus a positive attitude about using same.</p>

98

<p>

You know, I’m sure I grew up in the dark ages, but even then we knew about birth control. You can’t watch television without references to contraception or Viagra. I understand that it’s not foolproof, but there’s no way there are enough mistakes to justify all of the abortions in this country, about 1.4 Million per year. If these kids can figure out how to use a false ID to buy alcohol, surely they can take care of more important matters. For adults in a consensual situation, it’s hard for me to understand the irresponsibility.</p>

99

<p>Well, some drug stores don’t want to sell birth control or condoms, aint that swell…</p>

100

<p>CGM – go to Drugstore.com. It is a simple matter to order contraceptives online. And before everyone gets excited about those who don’t have access to the internet in their home, there are terminals in libraries. For those who live near “some drug stores don’t want to sell birth control or condoms, aint that swell…” – is it easier to find an abortion clinic than to buy contraceptive devices? Sometimes, these arguments just defy common sense.</p>