Not Need-Blind After All? "Top" Universities Agree to 9-Figure Settlement

By the way, this is sort of typical in the sense that the actual context of that Georgetown discussion was something entirely different. The President was being pressed on the issue of how much debt Georgetown students were taking out, and as part of defending the university, the President was explaining how this common formula worked. I think the intended implication was if a bunch of other colleges were using the same formula, that was verification it was a legit assessment of actual need:

Last year, the Institute for College Access and Success published a study indicating that, as of 2011, 39 percent of Georgetown students graduate with an average of $28,035 in debt—$1,435 more than the national average. How does the problem of student debt relate to problems of accessibility at Georgetown?

Well, it certainly shows that there are issues to pay attention to, number one. Number two, that was the [2011] number, the [2012] number is less than that. I think the [2011] number reflects the acute circumstances of the financial crisis. The number for [2012] is [$25,500].

We are one of 24 schools that are need-blind full need. 
 I actually chair that group, called the 568 group. The 568 refers to a passage in Higher Reauthorization Bill about a decade ago. 
 What it enables us to do is develop a common formula by which we would access the need of the student.

We ask the family to contribute the maximum that they are capable of, according to that formula. We then ask that they borrow, we ask that they apply for work-study, whatever is left over, we pay the difference. 
 The borrowing that we expect is only [17,500]. 
 [Students] with their families are making a decision to borrow more.

Now, that’s worth paying attention to, but by the formula we share with the 24 other schools, we don’t believe it’s necessary. 
 We understand it, we’re aware of it, but it’s not required by our assessment of their family capability.

You don’t think that the need formula is flawed in any way?

Well, it’s one that we’ve developed in connection with a group of colleges and universities. We’d also say, though, that given the value that one has with a college degree, I would certainly argue that $25,000 is not a high level of borrowing. I would argue that.

And that is how this kind of evidence often comes out, the company or institution or individual or whatever is defending against something else, not thinking about possible antitrust liability . . . and years later it shows up in an antitrust complaint.

But this is in fact getting to a key issue, which is these formulas allocate certain amounts to loans and work-study rather than grants So even holding aside the issue of whether the rest of the formula makes sense, an agreement on how much in loans or work study would be required would seem to be a handy tool for limiting competition over the generosity of grants–the sort of thing that actually comes out of the college’s own budget.

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I believe CWRU also becomes need aware when chosing frin WL

CWRU is need aware for all their undergrad admissions rounds. They don’t seem to address it on their FA website, which is a sign that a school is need aware. CWRU had been need blind but changed policy in maybe 2015 or so. The Observer mentions CWRU being need aware here:

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Not addressing the collusion . . .

There are only a handful of schools that meet full need, and are need blind. Like, 12 schools.

Guys this is common sense!!!

If they don’t have an UNLIMITED financial aid budget, and the vast majority of schools do not, they must stay within the parameters of their financial aid budget.

My spouse was the CFO at an educational institution with an endowment over $1 million/student, and even they were not need blind! They wanted to be, and it was an institutional goal, but they still aren’t there.

The process described in the Trinity article happens at most schools!

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12 (or fewer) is probably right when you include international students. For domestic students, it’s more like 40. Many of them package loans into their aid, but about 40 say they are need-blind and meet-full-need.

FWIW, this is why I like Wesleyan’s approach for schools with more limited budgets. Going loan-free and meeting full-need while staying need-aware means they can offer more generous aid to more students. Yes, they have to turn away some students because of their need, but is that actually worse than admitting them with a loan-heavy FA package? It also helps address the barbell effect, which is evident at need-blind schools that include loans; the students with the greatest need get generous FA packages, but the students with some but not extreme demonstrated need get more loans. As a result, they often select peer schools that can offer them loan-free aid packages or lower-ranked schools that offer them generous merit aid. And that’s how you get the missing middle.

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Do you have a citation for the 40 school figure? I would be interested in seeing it. All my googling, which is imperfect, turned up only 12 schools.

So the Wikipedia list is imperfect; it includes a number of schools with enough exceptions as to not really qualify as need-blind, but it gives you a sense (see the first two lists): Need-blind admission - Wikipedia

~40 is the number that is generally accepted as referring to the schools that are need-blind/meet-full-need for domestic applicants. So, Michigan, for example, wouldn’t be included since they are need-blind/meet-full-need only for in-state applicants.

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Thanks for providing that list. Unfortunately I think it is completely inaccurate. Most of the schools on the list do not have unlimited financial aid, and many do not include loans. There is No. Way. Denison meets full need and is need blind, e.g. Their endowment per student is $400,000! They are constrained by their finances. They have to be. In fact, they are pretty analogous to Trinity, profiled in the NY Times article.

I’m sure you’re right that a few of the schools on the list are simply wrong; I think Grinnell is need-aware, for example.

But when I count up the ones I know are need-blind/meet-full-need for domestic applicants, including the eight that include international applicants, it comes to about 40.

With an endowment per student of $1.4 million – one of the wealthiest colleges out there – I actually would be inclined to believe Grinnell is need blind. But that’s an educated guess.

It all comes down to budget! If you have a huge financial aid budget, you can afford to be need blind. If you do not, you simply cannot be need blind/meets full need and stay in business.

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You can if you include loans in your FA package.

(And you’re right—Grinnell is need-blind.)

Another useful reference is College Endowments
Note that the per student amount uses total number of students, not just undergraduate. Obviously a perpetual endowment can only spend a small percentage per year.

I’ll be surprised if the remainder don’t settle at some point. I don’t think they want this to come to trial and risk showing how the sausage is made. My sense is that these schools didn’t want to get into a bidding war over the most desirable lower income admits, but I could be wrong.

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Common sense is not sticking your hand into a fire, or not feeding a bear.

Knowing the ins and outs of “need blind” and “meets full need” and how these will affect your own personal chance of admission, and the size of your financial aid package, and whether or not your zip code will be read like tea leaves
being able to understand these things is the opposite of common sense.

My two cents is that between being able to define need as they wish, and being able to include work study and loans as “aid”, “full need” is a fairly weak claim in practice. And it definitely helps explain how so many colleges without the absolute top level of financial resources can claim to be both need blind and full need.

But generally, yes, the background reality here is colleges have budgets, net tuition is part of their budget, and in some way they ALL have a plan for getting net tuition on budget. The degree to which they need to do anything specific in the Admissions office to that end varies, but for sure someone somewhere is making sure the numbers add up.

All of which is fine but then in the US, the law is generally that you cannot collude with your competitors on price to make it easier to hit your revenue target. And sometimes exemptions are granted when for some reason Congress is convinced an exception is warranted. But if you don’t meet the terms of the exemption–that is not good for you.

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Apologies if this is too tangential to the thread, but the extent to which factors such as need by proxy, e.g. via a yield algorithm, might affect admission decisions is fascinating. Obviously, there are yield algorithms, but how that works in the holistic admissions process of making piles of yes/no/maybe, I’m curious. (Further, with the opacity of the process these days, it’s too bad there doesn’t seem to be an algorithmic way for applicants to determine their likelihood of admission to a particular college and I assume colleges would not want them to do so.)

Dartmouth has apparently been developing a model like that for internal use at its initial screening stage.

I actually do wonder if something like that could become a feature similar to the NPC, where you could input your primary college application information and it would output your odds of passing the initial screen at various colleges.

I doubt holistic review colleges would ever want that to be treated as a final assessment of admissions chances. But I do think perhaps they would not mind cutting off applications they are just going to screen out before during full holistic review anyway. They may not want to do that unilaterally, but maybe if they could do it together they would like that.

Anyway, this is a tangent of sorts, but I think a bit relevant because I think in a way it would help level the playing field as you are suggesting. Like, presumably an input into that model could be need status, and you could even play around with it NPC-style to see if it was affecting your initial review prospects.

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I have not read most posts in this thread, but feel comfortable stating that the lawyers will be very pleased with the settlements as will the schools, but not the plaintiff students.

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Please do not post links to NYT articles. Nobody wants to pay to read.

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The article in the first post is a gift link. If anyone is being asked to pay to read that article, please let me know.

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