<p>myone, in reality most applicants to HYPSM would not even consider applying to ND and the ones that do would only be for their “safety”</p>
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<p>shanka, oops, forgot these didn’t you?</p>
<p>28% to 72% vs Harvard
40% to 60% vs Yale</p>
<p>my guess is that these are way off, it is probably closer to :</p>
<p>3% to 97% vs Harvard
and
5% to 95% vs Yale</p>
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<p>I would be willing to be that Notre Dame is a FIRST choice school for a far higher percentage of college applicants than any Ivy except for Harvard, Princeton and Yale. And, show me proof that Yale and Harvard are chosen in those percentages over ND.</p>
<p>The fact of the matter is, the “ivy wannabes” tend to be students who are focused only in getting into “some Ivy” and thus tend to apply to almost all of them, because they have been fed and believe the media koolaid that the Ivies are so much better and you HAVE to go to an Ivy. Much of this is perpetuated by eastern wealthy families who force feed this mentality to their kids and its institutionalized by Eastern prep schools. Those types tend to apply to a bunch of Ivies and many have to settle for their 3rd, 4th choice etc. </p>
<p>Notre Dame students on the other hand tend to be, to a very large degree, students who WANT to go to ND and consider ND far and away their top choice or dream school. So for many, including obviously many Catholics, ND is a clear #1 choice and they don’t bother with “just settling for a second rate Ivy”, ie Cornell, Brown, Columbia just so they can say they go to any Ivy.</p>
<p>And obviously there are a large percentage of students who aren’t Catholic (Jewish, Asians) who self select and don’t consider Notre Dame only because of religion and geography (ie not because of academics). So to presume that ND is inferior simply because a large percentage of Jewish and Asian kids aren’t ever going to consider ND for non academic reasons is the epitome of arrogance, elitism, moronicism and idiocyism.</p>
<p>I think that John Adams is right about the Harvard Princeton Yale stats being more like 10 to 90 for a couple reasons. As stated above, I think that Notre Dame, for many students, is by far their first choice. These students (often legacies) would never dream of picking anything over ND and therefore don’t even bother applying to HYP and other ivies even though it’s highly likely that some of these schools might accept them.</p>
<p>The other group of ND applicants includes those who apply to ND because its a “good school.” Not because ND was their childhood dream or because they spend each saturday watching ND football, but because ND is in the top 20 on US News and World Report and has a highly-ranked business school. These are the students who apply to multiple other ivies and will invariably take HYPCD over ND in a heartbeat because, after all, HYPCD are just “better” (sarcasm). </p>
<p>So I think that many kids do prefer ND over schools like Harvard and Yale; so much so that they don’t even apply to the upper ivies. The kids admitted to ND who get into HYP are primarily kids who are looking to go to the “best” school and will easily turn it down for a spot at the top of the Ivy League. (Hence the very low cross admit stats)</p>
<p>I wouldn’t call 40 to 60 vs Yale a “very low cross admit rate”, if those figures are accurate. The other numbers were just JohnAdams’ elitist speculation. I am not doubting that ND would be a second choice to HYP. But I would bet than ND is much more of a first choice destination than schools like Cornell, Penn, Columbia and Brown. That was my point.</p>
<p>n-1 group. accepted at MIT ( a top applicant who received a phone call from the dean of admissions instead of an e-mail notification of acceptance ), several ivies. went there, did not like them. looked at ND with open mind, and picked it over all of them. as has often been said, the undergrad experience at ND takes a back seat to nobody. ungrads do indeed take a back seat at many of the aforementioned schools.</p>
<p>I actually was wait-listed at Brown and rejected by Yale! Likewise the other Ivies just were not appealing regardless of their prestige!</p>
<p>thickfreak, I find your comments here to be very reasonable:</p>
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<p>Well, let’s dig a little deeper. ND is a great school beloved by many. But if i were applying (and not my son)… Choice… ND or Cornell? Well Cornell has a better science curriculum… Probably more research opportunities, so the prudent choice, if one had one and wanted to do scientific research, would be Cornell. </p>
<p>You really can’t compare apples and oranges.
This whole business with college application has gotten way out of hand. I remember back in 1969 when I applied to one college, hand wrote my little personal statement on stationary… I got in but ended up transferring to another school for financial reasons. How quaint the whole process was! Despite my attendance at an obscure and very small college… seven years after my BA was awarded I was admitted to 5 out of 6 law schools which I applied to and ultimately attended a law school ranked 17 nationally (at the time).
So, I resent how this whole process has become nothing more than “big business”.</p>
<p>Well said, Krusso! As a parent, I completely agree with you – the stress level involved in getting accepted to a college of one’s choice is completely off the charts – surprised these kids aren’t all on medication by the time the end of their senior year rolls around!</p>
<p>I don’t have the exact numbers at hand, but there are some prior year cc threads stating some numbers on those who have chosen ND over Yale and Harvard. More than I would have guessed, although my S was one of them.</p>
<p>There are also articles in the media on what percentage of the student body is at their #1 choice school. As I recall, ND was very, very high–I believe 3 or 4. For the reasons posted a few threads up, ND is the first choice of many applicants. Harvard was #1. </p>
<p>This was the biggest turn-off for my S about Yale. Many of the students were very defensive about their “superiority” over H. We didn’t ask any questions of this type–they just kept referring to it. I think it makes a big difference in campus atmosphere when so many students are at their #1 choice.</p>
<p>one thing that I have noticed was that when walking around ND almost everyone that has a name of a college on an article of their clothing is wearing something with ND on it. when i visited other colleges, the student body would have varying college’s names on. I feel that those at ND have a real pride to be here and that makes it a great college.</p>
<p>“For undergrad education and experience, atmosphere, ND does not take a back seat to anyone.”</p>
<p>False.</p>
<p>For undergrad, everyone takes a back seat to Princeton. And that’s a fact.</p>
<p>That’s funny, ib62, because earlier in July you posted…</p>
<p>“I must admit, I visited other private schools, and in terms of the atmosphere and the people I met, Princeton wasn’t my top choice, nonetheless, I will be attending this fall. Then again, you don’t go to college to have a super-awesome time;”</p>
<p>Well said, Hawkswim! We have often used that as a non-scientific way to evaluate the spirit of a school! And, ND wins hands down! You are correct that there are many other schools where the kids are wearing hoodies/t-shirts from opposing or “wish they were there-type” schools. </p>
<p>And, I think my senior daughter only wears ND wear anyway! So, note to incoming parents/students~your kids don’t need to bring any clothes. They will accumulate an unbelievable amount of Notre Dame items and won’t need or want anything else…</p>
<p>Quote didn’t work, but I am responding to “Well, let’s dig a little deeper. ND is a great school beloved by many. But if i were applying (and not my son)… Choice… ND or Cornell? Well Cornell has a better science curriculum… Probably more research opportunities, so the prudent choice, if one had one and wanted to do scientific research, would be Cornell.”</p>
<p>I am very late replying to this, but I have to disagree. I am a doctoral candidate and was involved in research going back to my undergrad days at Notre Dame. I would say Notre Dame is FAR better for getting experience in research for an undergrad. The main reason, although it sounds crazy, is because Cornell has a much better grad program than ND. The graduate students will be the focus and will be doing the real research, the undergrads will help wherever they can, they won’t often be initiating their own projects. However, at ND, the grad program is weaker and some professors actually prefer to work with undergrads over the grad students. Because of this I was not only able to run my own research project as an undergrad but I also received $1,000 in funding from the school to do it. </p>
<p>I argue that often the reputation of the grad program is an inverse of the quality of the undergraduate education, and vice versa. At Notre Dame the grad program is weaker, and therefore the undergrads get more of the professors attention. Further, the grad students really don’t teach classes. On the flip side, at other universities (speaking from experience) the grad students are the focus of attention and teach almost all of the undergraduate courses. If you do research, you work with a graduate student, not a professor. I am currently mentoring one honors thesis and three other undergraduates doing research.</p>
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<p>I disagree. The two are not inversely proportional (at least not necessarily). Take HYPSM, for example.</p>
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<p>You cannot generalize from your current experience at a large state school.</p>
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<p>Is this what self-proclaimed “#1 choice” college students do? Make fun of so-called “2nd choice” schools? How classy and mature…</p>
<p>^^ sometime Notre Dame student’s pride turns into swagger - it happens especially within football rivalries </p>
<p>in terms of BC vs ND, there are a number of students in which BC is a better fit and better college. however, IN GENERAL, for most people, ND is usually a better fit and better college than BC is</p>
<p>I knew that someone would disagree with me on the inverse relation between grad school and undergrad, but I stand by it. I admit that there are some exceptions, but I would say it holds more often than it fails. I would much rather go to a Princeton than a Harvard because at Harvard the focus is on grad students and at Princeton the focus is on undergrads. Almost anywhere you go undergrads will play second-fiddle to graduate students (ND and Princeton are some of the few exceptions). If you go in knowing that and are alright with being taught by grad students (I think we do a great job teaching, honestly) then that is cool. However, if you want to be the focus, it is important to go to a school where undergraduates are the focus (i.e. a liberal arts college or a university that focuses on undergraduate education).</p>
<p>As for my ability to generalize, I feel that I have a good sample. I have friends who are grad students across the country who I talk with regularly, and I would say that my experience as a graduate student is not unique. Also, given that most college students go to large state schools, I think that means that my experience does generalize to the majority of college students.</p>
<p>Just realize if you are going to a large research 1 school that the focus is going to be on research and grants, not undergraduate teaching. Most of the faculty at these schools view teaching as a waste of time and a burden (not all, but it is fair to say most). The benefit of a school that focuses on undergraduate education, whether it be a Princeton, ND, or a LAC, is that you have a bit less of this (although it is still there) because the faculty know that teaching is an important part of the job/tenure criteria.</p>