Good trades!
Ewww… Some men are apparently too easily tempted…
This guy could not even show his face! Betcha Cisco found a more deserving candidate for that $170K job! Why wouldn’t LinkedIn remove his profile? I hope he will never, ever set his foot on the US soil. Good riddance.
U/o’s who think like that wouldn’t go into medicine in the first place. These U/o’s (who are at this level of stringency) don’t really participate in secular education. Indeed, a good number of them barely speak English, even though they were born and raised in the US. They attend yeshivas which often don’t teach the subjects we are used to. It’s a very insular life (which of course they’re entitled to live). Many of them pull welfare to support their large families. The Modern Orthodox typically enjoy higher secular education and participate in the secular world - like the man mentioned upthread that a poster used to travel with. They may not shake hands with a woman, they may bring their own food and not travel / work on the Sabbath, but they may still hold secular-world jobs. Joseph Liebermsn (Gore running mate) is an example.
Most Jews most posters on CC would be familiar with would be Reform, Reconstructionist or Conservative.
I’ve never met an Orthodox Jew, male or female, who shakes hands with the “opposite” gender. What I find somewhat entertaining is that there are Orthodox Jewish men who knew me before my transition who used to be able to shake hands with me, but can’t anymore. Their wives, the reverse.
Hayden: I’ll answer your question about the hypothetical ultra Orthodox doctor based on my understanding, but Pennylane, I suspect you know more about the issue, so please do correct me if I’m wrong.
First of all, as a matter of sociology, the kinds of ultra-Orthodox men who wouldn’t sit next to a woman on a plane are extremely unlikely to be medical doctors. Many ultra-Orthodox men do not work at all, but when they do, it tends to be in jobs that will still leave plenty of time for studying and fulfillment of religious obligations, and that wouldn’t require years and years of secular schooling.
I have known (male and female) Orthodox Jews “modern” enough to be medical doctors who observe shomer negia, which is the name for the prohibition against touching members of the opposite sex. None of them would think of applying it to their professional lives, even when a life is not at stake. However, these are also not people who would object to sitting next to members of the opposite sex on a plane lest their shoulders brush; most would also engage in casual contact like a handshake if it were impossible to avoid it without offense.
It is my understanding that while more extreme rabbis might not be happy with their congregants or followers becoming doctors precisely because of the many violations of Jewish law it would require, very few would say that observance ever trumps saving a life. There are a vile few who might argue, at least in principle, that the exemption only applies to saving Jewish lives - but in the modern era, I think even these would agree that in practice, you should always save a life.
I’d also like to correct the perception that these rules have to do with menstruation or the potential “uncleanness” of women, as the prohibition is incumbent on women as well; women aren’t simply expected to refrain from touching men because they might contaminate them, but because both genders are reserving even the smallest level of physical intimacy for their spouse or future spouse. The rule generally exempts immediate family members because casual physical contact between a father and daughter or mother and son are presumed to be inherently non-sexual. This wouldn’t be the case if menstruation were an issue.
Menstruation does become relevant in niddah, the laws regulating relations between a husband and wife, but that’s a whole different issue.
Pizzagirl: You can find Orthodox Jews at many of the schools we talk about on CC and in most professional occupations, so I’d imagine that most posters do know some Orthodox Jews. If there image of “Orthodoxy” is exclusively Ultra-Orthodox, they may not realize that their acquaintances are Orthodox. And Donna, in my experience many people who identify as Orthodox DO shake hands with the opposite gender. I grew up in a Modern Orthodox synagogue where this was the norm, and while there is a trend toward increased stringency in the younger generation, that is still true when I visit today.
A number of airlines prohibit unaccompanied minors to be seated next to a man.
A lot of this stuff is completely irrelevant. As PizzaGirl has asserted more than once, it basically comes down to what SHOULD have been said:
“Excuse me, flight attendant. My religion mandates that I not sit next to a woman. I will need to move. Can you help me?” NOT: “Flight attendant, I will not sit next to a woman. Make her move or I’m standing here in the aisle and the whole flight can be delayed until you make her comply.”
I worked some years ago in a hospital that was near Monsey, NY. I’m a Nurse Practitioner, but I worked as an RN at the time. This was an oncology floor so we were about saving lives, nothing that “could or should” wait. Orthodox male patients had no trouble with us touching them but those who were married had their spouses provide personal care. We had an orthodox RN who worked on our floor as well (a female).
ETA-in my current practice I have many observant Muslim females as patients. The doc who shares my office is a man. We have, on occasion, traded new patients back and forth by gender as the scheduler doesn’t always ask and they don’t always state they need a certain gender.
“: You can find Orthodox Jews at many of the schools we talk about on CC and in most professional occupations, so I’d imagine that most posters do know some Orthodox Jews.”
I have an insurance guy who is M-O, and know a professional photographer who is M-O, but I’m also near a big city. I might rephrase to suggest that the bulk of the Jews most ccers will know are likely not Orthodox, and trust that most ccers don’t live near Lakewood, Monsey, the 5 Towns or Williamsburg (or if they do, they know those areas are atypical).
In Judaism, saving a life takes precedence over any religious laws.
I recall when taking Lamaze classes for S1 (over 30 years ago) in NYC, we discussed how Orthodox Jews who wind up going into labor on the Sabbath can hail a taxi and pay the taxi driver while still being compliant with religious laws.
^ but perhaps academic, because good luck getting a NY cabbie to stop to pick up a very pregnant woman!
A teeny, irrelevant factoid: Williamsburg is the only place in NYC which has slightly different garbage pick-up rules. Instead of bringing the garbage to the curb, their garbagemen have to go into their yards and take the pails and then return them and close the gate. And for the two garbage pick-ups before Passover, garbagemen are moved from garages all over the city to get the area completely spotless.
If they are not black, bus drivers are afraid of being called racist. If they are black, they are afraid of being accused of being bigoted against Muslims. It’s an awkward situation because anyone can complain about anything for a bus driver and it’s treated as the truth. One of the bus drivers for this woman at night is my neighbor. He is black and the nicest guy in the world, also very smart and fair-minded, but he won’t say anything to her because it opens a can of worms that he can’t close and he doesn’t need to be suspended on her word.
This is a very good question. There’s a famous story–told by a Jewish man–about two supposedly religious men who pass by an injured man, who is finally helped by a member of a shunned minority. There’s a good lesson in there somewhere.
I had some very observant Jewish friends in college, and issues arose when they needed medical care on the Sabbath but the condition was not life-threatening.
For example, on one occasion, an observant Jewish student badly twisted his ankle on the Sabbath – a painful but not life-threatening injury. He went to a nearby medical facility (by hopping with his arms around two people’s shoulders because riding in a car on the Sabbath is forbidden) but could not get care because the rules of the Sabbath say that you can’t write, and the facility wouldn’t treat him if he wouldn’t sign a consent form. He ended up hanging out at the urgent care place, with his injury untreated, until the Sabbath ended at sundown so that he could get care without breaking any religious rules.
I think it’s very difficult to be an observant Jew.
But I still wouldn’t give up an aisle seat to help someone obey a religious law, unless I could trade it for another aisle seat. For medical reasons of my own, I’m more likely than most passengers to need the restroom during a flight. I value the aisle seats that I try very hard to get.
Actually, when I went into labor with my first, DH and I were living in Manhattan and took a taxi to the hospital. Admittedly, I didn’t look all that pregnant. Regardless, the taxi driver was very nice – tried to avoid potholes and other bumps, and wished us luck when we got out of the cab.
Off topic. Please continue.
zoosermom, I’m sure the Bus Bully could be dealt with by some media exposure. So why not notify some media outlets?
She’s not really a bully. I’m not explaining this well. I think part of it is that she is a new immigrant to the country and part of it is that she is newer still to the community. I think she sincerely believes that she has no choice but to stay away from infidels, particularly men, as much as possible. There are some places where separation of church and state is completely unthinkable. I personally think it is better to actually talk to her and explain better options and why her behavior can’t continue. I think she is very, very new to the US and completely new in the last couple of years to the community and the commute. She is a very nice woman, but is a little culturally ignorant.
If she’s not a bully, why is everyone so afraid of her?
But you said that if a white driver put an end to her wrong behavior, he’d be called a racist. A new immigrant already knows to pull the race card?
If it’s better to actually talk to her, then why hasn’t someone done it?