Keep your elbows to yourself, buddy, and we’ll get along just fine.
It’s one thing if the guy chooses to move / find someone else to switch with, DrGoogle. These men are standing and refusing to sit down unless the WOMAN moves. Nope, sorry. You didn’t just turn Orthodox yesterday. Nothing prevented you from buying a row of seats. Not my problem.
Can you imagine if the airlines accommodated people who didn’t want to sit next to Muslims or blacks or gays or Catholics?
“Well, this is a genuinely held religious proscription – that men and women can’t sit next to each other because of the possibility that they accidentally touch each other.”
Ehhh…the Orthodox rabbi quoted in the article and others agree that it’s OK on public transportation. They could choose to follow that understanding of the law if they liked. If not, they need to buy two seats or charter a plan so as not to impose upon others. I share the perspective that they are enjoying their morally superior dominion over the harlots on the plane.
The issue isn’t “genuinely held” because even the Haredi disagree among themselves about what is appropriate. I can show comments from Haredi rabbis saying that sitting next to a woman is fine. That concept misses the point because there is no central authority in Judaism that says this is what you do. That is a source of major arguments in Judaism generally. A classic example just occurred: Passover for Ashkenazi Jews lists a bunch of forbidden stuff that Sephardic Jews don’t. These rules come from centuries ago and how they apply vary not only by general divide of E. Europe versus S. Europe but also within Jewish strains that demand acceptance of stuff thought of in Poland hundreds of years ago and those who say “we don’t live in Poland back then” and we know now that beans aren’t yeast. It shows in much more serious ways as well - though you should hear the terrible things said about people who eat the forbidden stuff that’s not actually forbidden and how God is angry, etc. There is a major conflict over conversion recognition in Israel with the extreme Orthodox - sometimes Haredi, sometimes not - even disallowing conversions performed by some Orthodox rabbis. This has actual consequences in the real world because a child born to such a person lacks a bunch of legal rights in Judaism.
The real issue in the dispute is that El Al is trapped in the middle because they can’t fly if some religious doofus insists on standing in the aisle. So they have to figure out ways to make people happy and that always means the less religious person gives because the religious nuts act like religious nuts if they don’t get their way. (Without the bombs though, which is important to note.)
My belief is simple: buy the seat. Want to trade, pay the person to move. Any Haredi should come with cash ready to buy off a woman for her to move away from him. I’m sure their community would contribute to this because that’s how they do things.
Sorry, but as the woman who could be asked to move…the answer would be NO. Why should I be inconvenienced because someone wants to make an extreme interpretation of their religious guidelines.
I agree…if this is a huge issue…buy two seats.
If I were traveling alone, sure I would change… a seat’s a seat. I honestly don’t care whether I’m in a window or an aisle or between two people. I sit and read and relax, I don’t really care where.
But I would not break up my family to accommodate someone else.
Lergnom - it’s not just El Al. This is happening on American-based airlines such as Delta or United.
I say if they refuse to sit down, call security and have them removed just like any unruly passenger would be. Hopefully female security would arrive 
I would consider moving if the airline made it worthwhile - first class, a voucher, etc.
I did move on Saudi Arabian Airlines between Jeddah and Cairo since I took off the abaya and hijab (which was fine to do) and the man next to me objected since I had a 3/4 length cardigan and clearly my wrists are erotic. But there, I’m going to be docile since I just wanted out of that horrible country. A US -based airline? Nope, I’m sticking with my seat and they can either offer me an upgrade or have security handle the guy. Not my problem he didn’t think ahead.
Sometimes I think the press can’t resist an opportunity to present this topic in a negative light and expose a foreign concept to modern secular interpretation such as “sexist”, “mysogynist” and more. Consider the idea that if anyone here with a secular US background was transported into another country and culture- that they’d be the ones who everyone else thought was strange and have their ideas scrutinized.
Some of these ideas are not actually firm laws but interpretations of them and are adopted more or less strictly in different streams of Judaism. The reasons/explanations are complex and beyond the scope of a short explanation. This concept is also not exclusive to one religion.
That said, applying these laws in a secular setting such as an airline is problematic. IMHO, an airline can make reasonable accomodations for guests- such as a choice of meals and seating if possible, but they can not be expected to accommodate every single passenger’s wishes. This is something that the passenger needs to arrange well ahead of time with the airline.
Airlines that anticipate a certain number of passengers who prefer to sit next to someone of the same gender, and who wish to accommodate them could make some attempt to arrange this ahead of time. There are basically either 2 or 3 seats that are together, and so, a few rows could be designated to that arrangement if booked by a reasonable date. After that, the airline could fill the seats. They could make it clear that such seating is not guaranteed. After that, it is up to the passenger to assume this risk, or not travel. Ultimately, it is the passenger’s responsibility.
Would I change seats if requested? Yes, if I reasonably could, and not because I won’t sit next to someone of the opposite gender. Basically, because this concept isn’t about me, or women, but an extention of a person’s personal commitment to their own beliefs. On the other hand, if someone is being obnoxious about their beliefs, I recognize that this says more about that person than an entire religion. I think that the airlines can deal with obnoxious behavior appropriately.
Obnoxious people exist in every stream of life. Does this mean we should generalize this to an entire group?
Change seats because I am female? No. Not to be nice, not if I’m asked nicely. Though how does someone do that - “I’m sorry, you’re female and I choose to interpret certain religious edicts to mean that I shouldn’t sit next to you. Would you please move?” That wouldn’t really work for me. Let HIM move.
A person who wishes to sit next to someone of the same gender would likely be glad to move if it was possible. There is error in interpreting other cultures and belief systems through secular or western thought. This idea is very hard to comprehend without further study of the reasons behind it.
So when does one give up a seat? What if an elderly or pregnant person asked to change seats because they were uncomfortable in theirs? What if a religious person asked another person to change days off so that they could be with their families? There is a give and take to co-existence.
Certainly there are obnoxious and difficult people in all areas of life and one can deal with the behaviors appropriately. If someone or a business practiced something illegal, then that could be delt with according to the law. Now, however, it seems that a disagreement with someone’s religious ideas is grounds for public outrage in media and other arenas.
Would I change seats? Sure, if possible. If only two meals were left on a plane- a vegetarian one and a meat one, I’d give the vegetarian one to the Hindu passenger next to me. If it doesn’t make a difference to someone in a major way, one can choose to do something that might make a difference to another passenger. Why? because we have choices- to be considerate, or to be hostile.
Sure, I’d change unless I had some real compelling reason not to. Plenty of people have changed with me in the past so I could sit with friends or next to family, I’d do the same for someone else.
“There is error in interpreting other cultures and belief systems through secular or western thought.”
I don’t agree that it’s error in this context. As you note, a Delta flight is a secular, Western operation. So this is the right lens for this problem in this location. Like Pizzagirl, if I needed to visit Saudi Arabia, I would scrupulously follow their standards while in their space. Then I’d get home and call a misogynist spade a spade, and argue that our country shouldn’t do business with medieval oppression. Trust me, Saudis and Haredi men alike have no qualms about condemning our shameless hussies through their cultural lens.
“Obnoxious people exist in every stream of life. Does this mean we should generalize this to an entire group?”
Isn’t that what these men are demanding? They are claiming this need as Orthodox Jews, not as individuals. According to them, this is about law, not one man’s conscience. Of course there are non-obnoxious people in any society. But it’s hard to separate the culture from the individual here when the culture is being used to justify the insult to others.
Why does the woman have to change seats? Why can’t the man who is bothered change seats?
My kids grew up with many Muslim friends. Even when they were fasting for Ramadan, they did not ask everyone else to make unreasonable accomodations for them. I remember a birthday party that my D had where we ordered pizza. Her 2 friends sat with everyone else while they ate, and we saved several slices for them to have after sundown. I admired the girls’ will power, but they didn’t ask everyone else to fast as well. It was their choice.
This situation reminds me of folks who see that they must merge into the other lane, but instead of taking care of business when they first are aware, they continue in their lane and then expect others to accommodate them by letting them in ahead.
Totally agree. The men should figure out the seat switch…and leave the women passengers out of it.
And don’t fly southwest. No assigned seating…and they could wind up sitting next to anyone.
I don’t know much about Saudi law, but I do know enough about Jewish law to understand that the origin of this idea is not based in misogyny. People can and should have the right to decide to agree or not with any ideas, but to actually know the origins of some of them takes some study. Personally, I am fine with sitting next to anyone on a plane- with the only expectation that we’d be considerate of each other.
The problem is the line between religious and secular, and over the years, that line is getting deeper and thicker and people are less accommodating. I think this quote from the article sums it up well:
“The number of episodes appears to be increasing as ultra-Orthodox communities grow in number and confidence, but also as other passengers, for reasons of comfort as well as politics, push back.”
People are getting more mobile, less likely to be living in clusters. Haredi Jews have lived mainly in their own community. Now, they are getting more mobile, and the secular world they interface with is less accommodating.
The issue, IMHO, is with the religious travellers and the airlines that sell them tickets. The secular person who buys a ticket has as much right to keep it as anyone else. If someone buys a ticket on a secular airline, then one needs to know that the airline will not necessarily accommodate them. However, it is possible to ask a customer to change seats, and that customer can decide to do so or not. That alone doesn’t have to be seen as offensive. Standing in the isle refusing to sit is, and disruptive passengers need to be dealt with accordingly no matter what their reasons are.
It’s also a customer service issue for the airline. Presumably, if the numbers of Haredi passengers increase, it may be in the airline’s financial interest to offer something to accommodate them. It would not likely be feasable for any religious group to operate their own airline, but they might be inclined to purchase flights on an airline that considers them. From the marketing perspecive, an airline could choose to provide the option for a limited number of same gender seating on some flights.
there is a woman who takes my express bus fairly frequently and lives in my neighborhood. Seems pleasant and friendly, but she is an observant Muslim from Africa and she prefers not to sit next to anyone on the bus, but will not sit next to a man at all and has caused some disruptions (politely) several times by not allowing a man to sit next to her. She is young-ish, say under 35 and physically fit, but she takes over two of the handicapped seats every day. She will begrudgingly allow a woman to sit in one of the seats but not a man. There are a couple of problems with this. First, the bus fills up every day so no one can reasonably expect to take up two seats, but she does. Second, there are a handful of legitimately handicapped people who get on that bus every day, including one who takes that bus to transfer to another and so really needs to be at the front of the bus. Third, this bus travels through New Jersey, so standees are not allowed which means that a man doesn’t have the option of leaving the seat empty and standing up to get to work. Fourth, the bus drivers have no idea how to handle this. She is a nice woman, clearly religiously observant and sincere, but the seats are needed. The bus driver who had this run the last pick (that’s a period of time when that trip is where his seniority took him) was also black and a nice guy, but he was completely flummoxed about how to deal with the conflicting needs of a black woman’s religious observance and several white handicapped people. It ended up being a thing and it still isn’t resolved. Now the driver is white and he mutters constantly about not being a racist but needing all the seats.
Her need to not sit with man, does not supersede the need for other passengers to sit, especially handicapped. I would be livid if I were handicapped and she took up two seats. As a matter of fact, why is she allowed to even sit in the handicapped seats?
Anyone can sit in the handicapped seats unless asked to get up. Most people won’t raise a fuss. The driver from the prior pick asked her to sit in other seats and she reminded him that it was inappropriate to ask a black woman to move to the back of the bus. It was and is uncomfortable all around.
Perhaps the airline could stock a few plastic cocoons (like full-body condoms) that these men could don in order to avoid contact with women. Also, for women reading this, if you ever experience this problem, you can short-circuit it by saying, “By the way, I am currently having my period and I sat down on that seat (his assigned seat) before sitting here on my own seat.”