The reason people can’t be more civil about this particular problem is that to many of us who are not Orthodox Jews, it seems highly insulting to a woman to suggest that she is the problem in this situation. It is somehow different (at least to me) than somebody who wants a kosher meal. It’s demeaning and embarrassing for the woman placed in this situation. We wouldn’t tolerate it for one instant if it was based on race, and most of us think of gender in much the same way.
Personally, I’m not really happy with the airline solving the problem by moving people around. Again, we’d all presumably be up in arms if an airline gave in to somebody who didn’t want to sit beside a person of another race, even if there was some religious reason for it. I, at least, would want such a person kicked off the plane, not accommodated. I’m not sure why this is any different. Let them buy two seats, or first class seats, if this is their problem.
There is a variety of feelings and opinions over this situation, and this reflects the diversity in perspectives of people. It is good to know them. The situation on the airline is a culture clash. Surely, a secular airline and other passengers are not obligated to accomodate this. It isn’t about who is right and who is wrong, but how to solve a conflict. As with many conflicts, there are different solutions.
In the case of conflict, even if one party is being inappropriate, or worse, one still has choices. Naturally disruptive passengers should be removed. I’m not defending the behavior, but actually taking the stand that this can happen when someone from one culture is in conflict with another. If the reverse were to occur- someone from the secular world being transported into their world, they would inevitably be offending a lot of people too. Some Haredi Jews are very insular- and probably lack understanding of how things are in the secular world. However, they both are present on one airplane and that airplane has to be conflict free,at least as far as passengers sitting quietly together, for the duration of the flight.
I don’t have the solution, but my first attempt is to try to understand both sides before considering how to solve a problem.
“I don’t think she is being entitled, but maybe a little inflexible in the situation.”
Accusing the bus driver of invidious racism is way over the line for me. It IS appropriate to ask a black woman to move back if she is able-bodied and taking a seat reserved by law for a disabled person. She’s freezing him with that unfounded accusation, and she knows it. He has to start worrying about losing his job.
““It is every obnoxious Jewish stereotype come to life - arrogant, entitled”
Is this where we are today, that a statement like this is acceptable?”
Are you claiming that it’s unacceptable to discuss the reality that negative stereotypes exist? Even for members of the group being stereotyped, like me and @Pizzagirl? I differ. I think it’s important to acknowledge them and to talk about them. We live in a world with genuine anti-Semitism in it. These events take place in that context.
“I do know enough about Jewish law to understand that the origin of this idea is not based in misogyny.”
I don’t agree with you, but even if I accepted that the law came from a place of respect and equality, it could still be wielded as a misogynist weapon today.
It seems to me that if a person is savvy enough to figure out how to make to an airport and board an international flight, he should know that he is not going to be automatically seated beside another man. I think these men simply assume that they will be accommodated–and it appears that they generally are, either by the woman agreeing to move, or by somebody else agreeing to help them out. I find that to be pretty high-handed, and once again, we wouldn’t think of tolerating this if somebody didn’t want to sit beside a black person.
“Standing in the ailes is disruptive and that behavior should not be tolerated. The idea of tolerance would be to attempt to pre-empt disruptive behavior by looking into solutions before booking customers. It’s not your problem to solve. Disruptive passengers are responsible for their own behavior and the airline is responsible for the safety/rights/comfort of all passengers. So are there possible solutions?”
Yes. The solution is - if you want to ensure you aren’t seated next to (fill in the blank - women, gays, a certain religious, whatever), then you purchase an extra seat or the whole row as a buffer. Or you bring your wife along.
Let’s be really clear here. These people know that there is no guarantee not to sit next to a woman. They are simply hoping that if they stand there and make a fuss, everyone will kowtow to them and the woman will move. They don’t WANT to be proactive in solving the problem. Especially not if it involves any outlay of money.
Pennylane, the whole point of this article was that sadly, the airlines ARE running scared and don’t want to be accused of being anti-Semitic - which is why they are not doing what they really SHOULD do, which is to call security to escort a passenger off a plane who refuses to take his assigned seat or who harasses another passenger who is sitting in his or her appropriately assigned seat.
Well, FWIW, I’m Jewish too, and, even if there is a stereotype, I wouldn’t make a statement like that. I have lived in areas with few Jewish people, and have felt like a target. I don’t consider escorting a disruptive passenger off a plane to be antisemitic. I think they should escort any disruptive passenger off a plane.
Clearly, the western, secular ideas “win” and this is a secular airplane. That said, the only question I have is- is there a way for the two colliding cultures to come up with a reasonable solution. If the solution is that they buy an extra ticket, or bring their wife along, so be it, but I think it may need to be stated somewhere- this would protect the airline.
That was someone else’s suggestion. It would only work in a row with two seats.
I’m not as focused on one solution as the idea of asking is there a solution?
To me, it doesn’t seem that the gist of this thread is to try to at least come to some understanding, but to assert that they are arrogant and obnoxious every time this happens.
I think that was already concluded on this thread.
No one has come up with any incidents in which the man apologized and said it was nothing personal, but that he would have to move to a seat where he would be next to a man.
Personally, I’d be happy to move away from this man. It seems to me that there are many unhappy people on airline flights these days. I’ve witnessed a general lack of passenger civility toward the airline personnel and fellow passengers as well. Why doesn’t this man call the airlines before he flies and explain his seating needs and see if the airline can accommodate him. It seems to me that this would be the appropriate thing to do.
I sat next to a woman on a flight yesterday who was carrying either a wedding dress or a bridesmaid’s dress–it was in a David’s Bridal garment bag. She wanted an entire compartment for the dress so that it wouldn’t be crushed. The flight attendant told her that she’d have to wait until everyone was seated before looking for an empty compartment. The flight wasn’t sold out. It seemed to me that this was a pretty good option. The woman, however, proceeded to spend a good 5 minutes arguing with the flight attendant and holding up everyone behind her and delaying departure. She finally sat down with the dress and kept saying–“can you believe this?” It turned out that there was an empty compartment in the very back and the attendant came over and told them woman, who didn’t even thank the flight attendant for helping her. She just jumped out of her seat with the dress and took it to the compartment in the back. Sometimes, you’ve just got to go with the flow when you’re flying a commercial airliner. I’d like to be rich enough to fly private.
“That was someone else’s suggestion. It would only work in a row with two seats.
I’m not as focused on one solution as the idea of asking is there a solution?”
**Asked and answered. **
The solution is
a) for the burden to lie ENTIRELY on the person making the request, not the flight attendants who are trying to get the plane off the ground, and certainly not the “innocent” person sitting in her assigned seat, and
b) for said person to preemptively buy out the row that he’s seated in (and obviously avoid Southwest Airlines where you can’t pre-select a seat).
You’re mistaking the fact that these folks don’t WANT to outlay the money for the solution for the belief that no such solution exists. It exists; they’re just not willing to plan or pay for it.
As to whether the airlines should seek to set up such a solution by designating certain rows as male-only or female-only or setting up their passenger seating algorithms to ensure that you can request not to sit next to someone of X gender / race / background, the same way you could request (say) a window seat or a kosher meal?
Well, of course, any airline is free to do that if they so choose, but it’s abominable, backward thinking. It’s like saying that the Greyhound bus company or the NYC subway system should reserve some whites-only rows for those who don’t want to sit next to blacks.
Don’t get me wrong - if O-Jews in their private enclaves wish to segregate services by gender. - that’s their prerogative. But they have ZERO right to demand it in a public space.
"“It is every obnoxious Jewish stereotype come to life - arrogant, entitled”
Is this where we are today, that a statement like this is acceptable?"
I’m going to call arrogant and entitled behavior where I see it, pennylane.
How is it NOT arrogant and entitled for someone, who knows upfront that he has a religious belief which makes it problematic for him to sit next to a woman, to get on said plane and make a commotion about a woman sitting in her assigned seat and hold up the takeoff of the entire plane unless or until SHE moves? That is pretty much the very DEFINITION of arrogant and entitled, as I see it.
It’s not my statement that this is “arrogant, entitled” behavior that is unacceptable, pennylane. It’s the actual behavior itself.
I’d use the expression “shanda for the goyim” if I felt people knew it, LOL.
Just IMAGINE if there were some large, burly, physically intimidating black or Muslim man who obstructed an airplane aisle and refused to sit next to a white person, a woman, or a Jewish person. He would have been removed from that airplane pronto and it would be all over the news. I’m disappointed that the airlines don’t just call security and remove these offending men.
And asking the airlines to come up with a solution – just no. That’s like asking my neighborhood diner if they’ll institute a whites-only section because I just don’t like sitting next to blacks.
I’ve heard of this happening, rarely, on Asian airlines with Buddhist monks. I’ve also heard that the ultra-orthodox haredi will ask the flight attendants if they are “clean”. They are not allowed to be served by an unclean (menstruating) woman. They cannot accept a cup or tray from her.
If a man asked me that, for any reason, I would smile and insist that I was not clean! I could be 90 years old and using a walker and, sorry, I’m not clean.
That bus lady sounds like the worst sort of passenger. I get that she’s “nice”, that just means that she’s gotten clever at getting everything her way without yelling and screaming. Not nice at all!
I think his behavior is unacceptable. The airline should not accept that kind of behavior from anyone.
It bothers me to attribute it to a stereotype, even if there is a stereotype. This man is responsible for his own behavior. I don’t mind if you call it arrogant or entitled.
There could possibly be other religous people ( orthodox or other religions) who are courteous, or maybe not, but it doesn’t seem that people being courteous is in the news.