What I don’t understand about this whole thing, is why these guys don’t just plan their trips together. That way they could book their seats at the same time, and grab a whole row.
I admit, I did not even know there was a book.
I will look it up.
Off topic, but I * have * read Uncle Toms Cabin, and the title character is not the sort of person that we would call " Uncle Tom".
I will happily accommodate the elderly, period. But certainly not if it was someone objecting to sitting next to a woman for WHATEVER reason. So I am not worthy of sitting next to but I should accommodate you? Ridiculous.
People with children? Been there myself and you just plan ahead. I think children under a certain age have to be with an adult and that is usually covered by the desk agents before they board. But I will not accept a “lesser” seat (non aisle in my case) just because people want to sit together. There were plenty of flights where my family could not be seated together, we never requested other passengers to move.
Our family has never flown together. We drive.
You can sit where you want!
Not sure how people can claim that the beliefs and practices of the ultra-fundamentalists of various faiths are not misogynistic.
At root, it’s generally all about a hatred and/or fear of female sexuality and the female body. For Orthodox Jews, the woman is “unclean” during menstruation and after, until she goes to be “cleansed”. Same thing after childbirth for X number of weeks. (When are men ever deemed to be unclean?) And then with other religions there are all the ridiculous wardrobe restrictions which involve a woman having to cover lots of her body, or in some cases virtually all of it - because it’s “dirty” or because, heaven forbid, some man might get a hard-on looking at her, or have “impure” thoughts (impure 'cuz sex is dirty) and then he might not be able to control himself, and it would be ALL HER FAULT.
Oh, and in many of these religious groups, the men can prance around wearing shorts, tank tops, or whatever the heck they want.
How on dog’s green earth is all this not misogynistic? I don’t care how many centuries ago someone dreamed it up or wrote it down in some book.
Perhaps these orthodox men should be prepared to zip themselves up in a body bag. Then there’s no risk of them touching anyone.
I have actually seen Saudi tourists in the topics where the guy is in a tanktop, shorts, flipflops, and his wife is in a black, smothering shroud complete w black gloves and a sheer veil to cover the eye holes in the niqab.
Ahem, it has happened…
"Perhaps these orthodox men should be prepared to zip themselves up in a body bag. "
Whole body condom… to prevent accidental sexual contact with a female elbow while wrestling for that arm rest.
The woman on the bus is NOT nice. She may be charming but she is not nice at all. If I were pregnant and I needed to sit in one of “her” seats, I’d just say “I’m sorry I need to sit”, and then sit down. Is that being entitled? Yes, but no more than her sense of entitlement.
As for flights, no, I would not move from my seat. There’s a nice empty seat next to me, it’s up to the man to either sit down or find a seat more suitable for his sensibilities. He is an adult, presumably he knows his needs. I don’t and I don’t choose to take on the burden of meeting his needs on the spur of the moment. Now, if I were told beforehand about the seat situation and a reasonable solution was proposed before boarding, I would probably agree to that. In other words, don’t expect me to just capitulate to your values without any consideration for my values.
“It bothers me to attribute it to a stereotype, even if there is a stereotype.”
But no one was attributing the behavior to a stereotype. We noted that they were teaching others to think that the stereotype was true. There’s a huge difference.
Actually, Southwest would probably be easier for them to fly on. If they board somewhere in B group, they should probably be able to find a middle seat between two passengers who are already seated whom they would not object sitting next to. Or they could buy a second seat like “customers of size” are required to and reserve the second seat as an empty middle next to their aisle or window.
On Southwest, they may not get a choice if they board early (so random others can sit next to them) or so late that there are few empty seats left.
If there are any bus drivers of the same religion, race, and gender as the obnoxious passenger, perhaps if such a bus driver took the route for a few days, she could better solve the problem.
i think the idea that the airline should proactively accommodate them is crazy.
They do that in Saudi Arabia - women-only and men-only sections of restaurants. (When I went out to eat with male colleagues there, they put us in s corner and put up screens so no one else could see me. Even then, they were technically breaking the law,) Those are the kinds of backwards societies that have that sort of thing. Not the US / West.
“The danger is that by dismissing other people’s feelings and ideas, we then develop the sense of superiority- the right to invalidate others. The irony is that people are also calling for tolerance. Tollerance doesn’t mean tolerating bad behavior, however, it could mean making an attempt to understand cultures that think differently and to be civil in the face of disagreement.”
In all of the instances cited, the women who were asked to move appear to have behaved civilly by politely saying no, this is my seat, I paid for it. The FAs are behaving civilly - too civilly IMO when they have every right to call security. It is the men who are standing in aisles and refusing to sit and delaying the flight who are not being civil.
I really, really dislike the apparent notion that all religious values must be equally appreciated and valued or that we can’t possibly criticize actions from s sect of Judaism without being labeled as anti-Semitic.
Explain the fine points of cultural equivalence to the girl who is being held down for FGM…
I’ve moved before in situations like where a couple weren’t seated together. I won’t give up my aisle seat for a non aisle seat though, I make sure an aisle seat is available before I book a flight. A long flight in a middle seat is just miserable. I fly rarely nowadays, usually just my annual trip back to England and it is a long time to be uncomfortable. In this situation I would expect the man to move and would tell them “you are quite Welcome to move, I won’t be the least bit offended”. (Though if I was as tired and grumpy as I am right now I might just say “Hell NO”)
Wow, it seems that my comments have been interpreted beyond their intentions. To me that indicates the different ways people see things. It was not my intention to consider something like asking someone to change seats in the same light as female mutilation, but that is one possible way of looking at things.
The topic of the thread is what are people’s personal opinion? at least I it appeared to be that initially. So, here is mine. I choose to look at origins of customs in detail. It’s a personal interest. This doesn’t mean I agree with or practice all of them. If one wants to consider these practicices as misogynist, than that’s one way to see them. I see them as more complicated than that- that’s an opinion. Because of this, I am not personally offended if an orthodox man does not want to sit next to me. However, others are free to think about this the way they choose.
Would I change seats? Yes, if it was not a huge inconvenience. However, this doesn’t necessarily extend to every possible religious idea. The initial topic was about changing seats.
Is being critical of someone who is acting disruptive, or disagreeing with orthodox Jewish practices anti-Semitic? No. In fact, there have been commentaries from rabbis who do not condone the behavior of these passengers. However, I think people should be careful about attributing behaviors to groups of people.
I think it was established early on in this thread that the concensus is that this man behaved badly. As to disputing religious practices, clearly, in the US, there is great diversity of opinion and practice, so I don’t thing it is possible, or desirable in a free society to arrive at to a concensus on that.
I will leave it at this. One opinion in favor of voluntarily changing seats, the rest against. Perhaps the airlines and the people who ask others to change seats will take note. If this is the prevailing opinion, than that is not likely to be an option.
“Because of this, I am not personally offended if an orthodox man does not want to sit next to me. However, others are free to think about this the way they choose.”
I was not personally offended at the thought an ultra-orthodox man doesn’t want to sit next to me, either. Whatever - I’m sure he’s no great prize. I prefer my men working for a living and earning money, not accepting public handouts under the excuse they need to study all day.
I am offended - not as a woman per se but as a paying passenger - that another passenger gets to decide he’s going to hold the plane hostage unless we accommodate his completely arbitrary desires. And yes, they’re religiously-based. So what? Still completely arbitrary.
There was another thread that referenced an Orthodox family who, through their own poor planning, showed up late and missed a flight - and because it was Friday, thought that the airline should “jump them ahead” of other standby passengers based on their religious needs because they couldn’t travel after sundown. Nuh-huh. They actually and truly felt that they were entitled to have the airline accommodate their religious strictures at the expense of other passengers.
“However, I think people should be careful about attributing behaviors to groups of people.”
A really good way to avoid stereotypes is to avoid engaging in the kinds of behavior that fuels the stereotype.
It is not new news that there is a “pushy, entitled, arrogant, cheap” Jewish stereotype and it’s a disservice to pretend that such a stereotype doesn’t exist. It is not new news that certain groups of Hasidic Jews often “behave badly” in public settings. Need I bring up Ramapo?