<p>The charge that has been leveled at Princeton (not Harvard) was that Princeton favored suburban kids over urban ones, because the urban ones were more likely to be Jewish (and later Jewish and Asian) students attending schools such as Stuyvesant. Suburban students are not considered to contribute toward geographical diversity. Being from Appalachia or Montana is; being from an inner city neighborhood is. Being from Scarsdale, NY or Lexington, MA is not.</p>
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<p>Bolding added.</p>
<p>And it’s Rosovsky who enlarged the concept of geographical diversity to mean not just the suburbs but the whole country.
Rosovsky, a professor of economics specializing on Japan did a great deal, perhaps more than any other dean, to make Harvard into a national and international institution by expanding its geographical reach, among other things. In the 1960s, Harvard did not have the reputation or cachet it now enjoys.</p>
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<p>I think you are wrong again, but none of this affects my point about the “bagel.” In any event, if you feel like discussing the accomplishments or philosophy of Henry Rosovsky, I would ask that you provide some quotes or links or something.</p>
<p>I know Henry Rosovsky personally and I lived through the great transformation of Harvard from a preppy school to a world-renowned school. I’ve been at and around Harvard for nearly 40 years.</p>
<p>Even with the enlargement of the concept of geographic diversity, the Mid-Atlantic states send the largest proportion of the Harvard students.</p>
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<p>More power to you. Doesn’t change the fact that he (apparently) linked geographic diversity and antisemitism.</p>
<p>Can you provide the link to the article? The hole in the bagel, by the way, is NYC’s inner-city. It is now one of the targets of the Harvard Financial Aid Initiative, launched by its former, and Jewish president, Larry Summers.</p>
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<p><a href=“http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cache:yYJj0jj6m4cJ:www.tnr.com/doc.mhtml%3Fi%3D20051226%26s%3Dglazer122605%26c%3D2+“or+the+bagel%3F”+asked+Henry+Rosovsky"&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us[/url]”>http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cache:yYJj0jj6m4cJ:www.tnr.com/doc.mhtml%3Fi%3D20051226%26s%3Dglazer122605%26c%3D2+“or+the+bagel%3F”+asked+Henry+Rosovsky"&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us</a></p>
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<p>Depends how you define “inner-city”</p>
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<p>So what?</p>
<p>I found this article about the history of Jews in academia. Interestingly, it makes a reference to the “bagel” anecdote but does not attribute it to Rosovsky who otherwise figures prominently in the story and is described as turning down the Yale presidency in 1977 because the selection of a Jew for an Ivy League university would no longer be news.</p>
<p>The article cites as its source for the anecdote a work that was published in 1968. Either it is wrong, or the article you cited, which has the meeting occuring in 1969 or 1970 is wrong, at least as to the date.</p>
<p><a href=“http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0411/is_n3_v46/ai_20119170/pg_6[/url]”>http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0411/is_n3_v46/ai_20119170/pg_6</a></p>
<p>If you don’t know what an inner city is, and whether there is one in NYC, you can read the pages of the NYT. HFAI does not seem to have any trouble.</p>
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<p>It’s also possible (and more likely) that Rosofsky wasn’t the first person to make the donut/bagel observation and that he was just repeating a phrase he had read or heard somewhere else.</p>
<p>In any event, if you want to convince me that the quote is fabricated, you will have to do better.</p>
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<p>If bagel = Westchester, Long Island, and north Jersey, then the “hole” – which you equate with the “inner-city” – includes some of the wealthiest neighborhoods in the whole country. </p>
<p>I find it odd that you believe that Harvard’s Financial Aid Initiative would be targeting kids on the Upper East Side; the West Village; and TriBeCa, but perhaps the problem lies in your understanding of NYC geography.</p>
<p>I am not claiming that the anecdote is fabricated. I am asking for the link to the article and pointing out that the article I do cite gives as its source a different date and does not link Rosovsky to the anecdote.</p>
<p>As for inner city, you are willfully misconstruing what I posted and the meaning of inner city. There’s more to the hole in the bagel than Park Avenue and other posh places. </p>
<p>You want the last word? I give you the last word. Ciao.</p>
<p>I know nothing about Rosovsky, but I think anyone but an ostrich would admit that when geographic diversity focuses on getting representation from all 50 states, both Jewish and Asian applicants suffer because those groups tend to cluster together. They are not evenly distributed among 50 states. Fred Hargadon at Princeton really emphasized geographic diversity based on state of residence and it was one reason the faculty, particularly Jewish faculty members, were less than enamored with Hargadon. </p>
<p>Following his departure, the president of Princeton made it well known that Princeton wanted “Stuyvesant types”–she used that exact phrase and used her hands to make quotation marks.</p>
<p>It helped that the ONLY NYC Jewish public magnet high school kid Hargadon admitted during one of his last years as admissions director won the award for most outstanding member of the junior class at Princeton. The faculty saw him as living proof that the best thing Princeton could do to make itself a better place academically was to admit fewer suburban jocks from Montana and more kids from NYC public magnets. </p>
<p>My understanding is that the highest # of kids from a Stuy class admitted to Princeton in any given year during Hargadon’s reign was seven. The year following his departure, it was 13. Hunter, another NYC public magnet, had rarely sent more than 2 kids a year to Princeton, and the majority were either legacies or recruited athletes. The following year, it was six. it was almost unheard of for Princeton to take an unhooked applicant from BxS; it does so all the time now. </p>
<p>There are also some excellent Jewish day schools in NYC. The head of Ramaz, one of the best, was very vocal about the fact that while Harvard and Yale routinely took about half a dozen a year, Princeton admitted not one during the Hargadon years. </p>
<p>NYC is VERY different from most cities. While we have plenty of poor folks, the best and the brightest can go to the “sci highs,” Hunter, Townsend Harris, the top track at LaGuardia or top independent schools via Prep for Prep. ( Stuy, thanks to former schools chancellor Rudy Crews, offers special summer programs for the best and the brightest kids from the weakest NYC elementary schools to prepare them to take the “sci high” test. Hunter reserves 15% of its class for the disadvantaged. They take the same test as everyone else.) And the Catholic schools in the City also do a great jo of educating the poor. This is especially Regis,an all-scholarship, all male Jesuit high school which gives an admissions test but admits only a fraction of those who make the cut-off score. The interview is crucial–but so is poverty. While LOTS of very wealthy Catholic boys attend Regis, the poorer you are, the more likely it is you will be admitted if you have equal test scores.</p>
<p>Even kids who go to regular old public high schools can get into Columbia’s and NYU’s programs for poor NYC kids. </p>
<p>NYC is unique among American cities in that it has many, many very wealthy residents living in the city–not suburbia. It is also unique in that many of them choose to send their kids, especially during high school, to the City’s public schools.I firmly believe that, despite all its problems, the NYC public school system offers more opportunities to smart kids from poor families than does any other public system in the US. That is also true for college–HEOP is one of the best programs of its kind.</p>
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<p>You seem to have a big problem accepting that Rosofsky may have linked geographic diversity and antisemitism.</p>
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<p>So what? If you are not expressing skepticism that Rosofsky linked geographic diversity and anti-semitism, then what is your point?</p>
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<p>I’m not misconstruing anything. Here’s what you said:</p>
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<p>I was surprised you would say this, which is why I pointed out that it depends on how you define “inner-city.” Rather than explain that you were referring only to certain areas, you suggested that I didn’t know what “inner-city” meant.</p>
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<p>Bye.</p>
<p>I agree wholeheartedly.</p>
<p>“The faculty saw him as living proof that the best thing Princeton could do to make itself a better place academically was to admit fewer suburban jocks from Montana and more kids from NYC public magnets.”</p>
<p>I never knew there were suburbs in Montana!</p>
<p>I have a question. WHy do they take 13 kids from Stuy and only 3 from bxs each year? Is there some sort of bias?</p>
<p>Thank you 2boysima. That was my first reaction too…suburbs in Montana? </p>
<p>Urban people have a hard time differentiating “suburbs” from “rural”. </p>
<p>One easy way to tell the difference is suburbs have lawns (and mowers) and rural areas have farms or ranches (and tractors). </p>
<p>Another difference is that suburbs have huge numbers of well qualified students fiercely competing to get into HYP, while rural communities have very few students who would even WANT to go to HYP.</p>
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there is no bias. in general, stuyvesant students yield higher test scores/gpa every year than bronx science. it seems to be proportional.</p>
<p>I’m getting a big kick out of this thread. If one more of my pals from the Northeast tells me that our kids have a great “hook” in that we live in Northern Florida I’ll scream. !! Thing is, because of the culture here. the Ivies are relatively dismissed. The football is irrelevant so why would anyone want to go there? I sure would love it if my kids would just take a look! The only kids who think of going to college north of the Mason Dixon line are offspring of relo’s like me.</p>
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<p>You obviously have NEVER been to Montana and must not know anyone from Montana. First, the few students in Montana applying to HYP are the kids of eastern transplants. Second, no half-way respectable Montana jock would ever consider HYP. They may have heard of HY but P will get you a polite stare. Third, if HYP failed to take students from Montana, Idaho, North Dakota, South Dakota and Wyoming that still would not open up enough spots for all of the brilliant, amazing, but rejected east coast students. </p>
<p>Would some one explain to me why the parents of all of these amazing students have not used their considerable resources to make their own in-state institutions more academically desirable?</p>