It was gameable and gamed before. Much more so, in fact.
One of my great nieces is in public elementary school G&T program in the Bronx. She is the only white girl in her class. The other elementary school they had access to, which does not have a G&T program, actually has higher test scores. (Not necessarily higher than the kids in the G&T program, but overall.)
Some people prep their pre-schoolers for the test that determines eligibility. They chose not to.
It will be interesting to see how this turns out. The choices and pressures on NYC parents are extreme.
“It was gameable and gamed before. Much more so, in fact.” That doesn’t mean that it is okay, and these days I would argue it has gotten moreso, when my friends went to Stuy in the dark ages NYC was in a different place, and there wasn’t the level of mania that exists today, with the mania about getting on the right track to get into Harvard starting at pre school and so forth, comedians have made a lot of hay out of this but it is true. I would argue the playing field from an economic standpoint was probably more level back then, if that you didn’t necessarily have the level of mania to get into these schools (a friend of mine in the Bronx in the neighborhood where relatives lived, came from a working class background and she got into Stuyvesant, she did have a test prep book the city actually gave out,but other than that, she went to the local public school, and got in, today I doubt she would). I think the level of heat is much higher today and that because of that, the influence of economics is even more great than it was back then.
I didn’t say it was ok. Sometimes two things can be bad at the same time. This is that.
And as I said, I’m very concerned and would support serious expenditures of money to improve the situation.
The level of heat and the fact that different groups with different levels of power and influence in this specific issue are lining up against each other.
I remember reading a piece in the NT times several years ago where Alumni of the specialized high schools were trying to diversify enrollment by also offering tutoring and prep programs. So this disparity has been recognized for some time and attempts both public and private have existed for years.
I think focusing on pre high schools is important because as noted above, even if a student ends up not attending a specialized high school, the extra tutoring can give them a better base wherever they end up. Also, knowing that adults viewed them as having college potential would help them realize those goals are feasible. Here is the article from several years ago:
@zoosermom:
True, and that none of the groups sees the value I suspect in trying to improve things, if they make it more level of a playing field, that means that some of those from the currently privileged groups might not get in, that all their efforts failed. Similar discussions go on all the time with college admissions, about affirmative action and in how admissions are done, those who play the game, have the resources and schools that allow the kids to meet the entrance requirements, who can spend the kids lifetime gaming the system to get them in, think that it is unfair that another kid got in instead of theirs, without of course seeing that maybe, just maybe, the problem is with the whole admissions process itself.
Well that’s just too bad. These are public schools, not private colleges.
Personally, I can see why SI Tech skews the way it does, because the program is very specific and a lot of even very bright kids don’t want to study Russian and/or engineering, which is fine. But such low levels of diversity in public schools is just not acceptable. But I do think it’s critically important to do our best to ensure that the kids who get in can succeed.
I despise the NYC public high school admissions process with the power of a thousand suns, but the fact is that there are very, very good schools which help students achieve wonderful results outside of the specialized school system. As I said, my kid was a one percenter in her year who was also admitted to Stuyvesant. She just hated the school when we visited and made a different choice, which was right for her and had a phenomenal experience in her NYC public high school. As pizzagirl always says about Ivy mania, there are other amazing options. Yes, the NYC public school system has major problems, bla, bla, bla, but even the most gifted/brilliant/motivated kid has a plethora of options other than the specialized schools to achieve great success and gain a world-class education. Some of the other schools/programs are unquestionably better for some kids than the specialized schools, and when parents go to such lengths to exclude all other schools from consideration, they also end up excluding people for whom those schools would be an even better fit. Part of fixing the problem, IMO, is educating parents and helping change the culture of perception that only the specialized schools are good enough. They are great schools, but they are specialized in a way that might not be perfect for every single kid, and there are other schools that are equally excellent, but totally different, and might be an even better fit for kids shoehorned into the specialized school by parents who aren’t as informed as they think they are.
I think the pressure on kids to get into the exam schools in NYC is intense partly because the regular public schools are not very good.
I live in Montgomery County, Maryland, where we have selective-entry high school programs, some of which are nationally known. But our regular high schools are pretty good too, and few families would seriously object to sending their kids to those schools.
There are some families here who highly prioritize getting their kids in to the selective-entry programs, but many families are quite casual about it. My family, for example.
One of my kids took the test for one of the selective-entry programs because her friends were taking it. She didn’t prepare at all. And when she and some of her friends got in, she decided to attend the program mostly because she wanted to do what her friends were doing. This was basic 13-year-old thinking, and we went along with it. (It turned out fine.)
My other kid said that he wouldn’t apply to any of the selective-entry programs if they were the last schools on earth because he didn’t want the long bus rides and the heavy homework load. This was another kind of basic 13-year-old thinking, and we went along with it. (Things turned out fine for him at his neighborhood high school, where he got good preparation for college.)
I don’t think we would have been that causal if we lived in NYC.
There are big variations among the test-admit high schools in NYC. My daughter went to Brooklyn Tech where more than half of the students are eligible for free or reduced-price lunch. That includes most of the Asian students, many of whom are not East Asian but South Asian (mostly Bangladeshi). And there are many more (although still fewer than the demographics of the city would indicate) black and Latino students than at the other two big schools, Stuyvesant and Bronx Science. The remaining schools are much smaller. Brooklyn Tech is the largest by far, with 5500 students.
The test is very different from SAT/ACT type exams. The “English” section consists of three parts: 1) something called scrambled paragraphs for which the student is given six sentences that must be placed in the proper order to make a coherent paragraph (and if any of the sentences are out of order, credit is lost for all of them); 2) a group of logic questions, and 3) reading comprehension. The math includes questions more advanced than the curriculum in most middle schools. Grading on the exam gives preference to students who score higher on one section than the other, rather than students whose scores are similar in the two parts. Although the instructions don’t make it clear, students are permitted to do the sections in whatever order they prefer, giving students in the know who are better at math an advantage to skip the verbal sections and go directly to where they excel.
So test prep is extremely necessary. In most ethnic enclaves with many Asian students, there is a multitude of reasonably-priced test prep schools that parents who work many hours and can’t schlep their kids to afterschool activities prefer since it keeps their kids off the street doing an activity they know will help their futures. The Asian population of NYC is not like what you find in many suburban communities with a preponderance of educated upper-middle-class parents. There are many households where English is often not spoken at home, multigenerational families living in crowded spaces, parents working in sweatshops and restaurants, Of course there are also educated Asian parents and their kids are more likely to get into the schools with the highest minimum score, which are Stuyvesant (much higher than the rest) and Bronx Science. At Stuy and BxSci 47 and 48 percent of students respectively are eligible for free and reduced-priced lunch. At Brooklyn Tech, 65 percent of students are eligible.
Many of the regular public schools are not very good. But within many of those schools, there are programs that are excellent by any measure, and the admission process is broken out by program. The specialized schools simply aren’t the only stellar options for very bright kids in NYC. They just aren’t.
Why not spend the money on something substantial? Increasing a kid’s test score doesnt’ make him 'smarter" or a better student.
Relax the score req’t and make admissions more holistic and use the money for tutoring/advising as needed. Or, offer summer classes before frosh year
Who is making these decisions??? Not very deep thinkers IMHO
Holistic admissions = gaming the system. Been there, done that. Doesn’t work.
The system that used to be in place spanned years and was about real education and skill building, not teaching to the test, and it did many good things. But. Lawsuits.
My DH and BIL both went to Bx Sci, and my sons attended the two big name, selective admit magnet programs in our county. DH and BIL qualified for free and reduced lunch. There was not a particular emphasis at home on academic success – both of them wisely figured out early on that education was their ticket out of the hellhole they lived in. They were first gen college students and zero EFC kids before that became an admissions plus. Wonder if they’d be covered under this initiative now.
IME, there are community-driven programs (often taking place as part of weekend language/cultural studies) that work on test prep. It’s not just Asian families who do this. I think it’s a reflection of other cultures where “the test” is far more determinative of future options than in the US. Not that I agree with the test prep industry for 13 yos, but I understand the cultural imperative. Heck, Germany starts tracking kids toward work or Gymnasium at age 11-12. My former DIL is English and she was appalled that US schools asked for personal essays. (She had to write several for coming to UChicago as a study abroad student.) She said her apps were evaluated on the GCSEs, transcript and statement of intent. She had to take additional exams at Oxbridge for admission to specific majors.
We didn’t do the test prep thing (neither of my kids ever took the SAT til junior year of HS, and we didn’t use any test prep services). While there is underrepresentation of African American and Latino students in the magnet, there are also major efforts going on to be more inclusive and in getting all kids prepared to take on these kinds of programs.
The selective admit IB program S2 attended was 65% female. Should it be 50/50? The math/science magnet used to be heavily male, but has improved in recent years as there has been more outreach.
It’s not test prep these kids need. It’s better education that gives them the tools to be able to tackle more challenging work. And $15M is a drop in the bucket toward achieving that goal.
Our county magnet school uses more holistic approach to admissions. They require essay, teachers recommendations and an interview in addition to entrance test and audition for some majors. Over the years they were sued and were offering free test prep. The outcome is still the same. I just checked - 1.1% black, 6.6% Latino and 50% Asian. Unless you intentionally rig “holistic” admissions to achieve noble social goals the results will not change much - more talented and better prepared are the same students, holistic or not.
No, in my opinion, even though the ratio led to my daughter having a social life of excruciating dullness during her four years there.
If IB appeals more to well-qualified girls than well-qualified guys, so be it.
Really interested in this conversation as someone finishing up my first year teaching in the Bronx. If they can figure out how to get high scores to get into the specialized schools, will they succeed there? Not necessarily. It kills me seeing how many students here are going to graduate high school but have not been exposed to a rigorous, challenging education in the slightest. Many have gotten into college but they are not college-ready.
Making the admission process holistic would require state legislation, which is unlikely to happen. And I don’t think any of the measures announced this week will make much of a difference, though I’d be happy to be proven wrong.
My daughter didn’t want to go to any of the SHSAT schools but I made her take the test just for practice. She missed the Stuy cutoff but could have got into the other schools. At this point a lot of non-Asian kids who could get into Stuy and Bronx Science don’t want to go there.
Very true. My D was one, and there are many kids who could and do get the required scores but choose to attend LaGuardia because they are also artistically gifted. There are also some really interesting, unique and stellar programs in other schools.
Marian – I agree on not adjusting the ratio. My older son and his best buddy refused to apply to IB because of the language requirement and because math/CS were weak compared to the other program. For S2, who wanted intense social studies and history courses, IB was right up his alley, even through he lacked the organizational skills to manage the workload as successfully as he needed to. The maturity and org skills of the young women in the program was definitely an advantage.
"I think the money could be better used " - having been to NYC many times and staying for about week at a time, there are definitely much more needed expenses in NYC that could be covered by this money. I do not want even to begin the list. Stuy is getting the best students, so there is no problem at Stuy. The population is not diverse, sorry, it is not diverse at very many most selective academic institutions and maybe certain groups need to look inside why this is the case instead of always pursuing the same, over and over and over, looking for more money to cover deficiency. So far has not worked well at all and it will NEVER ever work. More money is not always a solution. It is NOT in this case.